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Beyond the Grave [NOW RELEASED]
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doomjedi
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:57 am
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I have noticed that most people playing this game so far, fall into 2 camps: 1. they have not played a classic first person shooter in a very long time, so the game feels very nostalgic to them; and 2. they are a lot more familiar with Doom and Quake and not so much Blood and Hexen, so for them, the game feels different.

Hate Quake and barely played it (played a bit more of Quake 2, hating it as well. Liked Quake 3 Arena the best, especially multiplayer modes and more vibrant palette/world they show). Hate 3d models (and sure primitive one used in quake), and whole orange/brown palette/world of Quake 1/2 didn't do it for me. I'm sprite maker, I love pixel enemies Smile
So I'm more of Blood/Hexen fan.

Quote:
I was going to make the machete act similar to the weapons in Witchaven
Would be good idea, Witchaven is great on melee fights (especially if shield is added to it for complicated interactions). Noticed you used some of Witchaven scenery Wink I love the see use on mod of Witchaven art, for a game being underused modding-wise and underrated in general (though it's a bit too model/realistic-looking, just like Redneck art) . I love melee engines as they are nice change from usual retro shooter and fights feel more "real and personal" when you actually hit an enemy looking him in the eyes - and not snipe from afar. Wanted for a long time to make Melee engine game.

Quote:
graphics are just something I am not good at working with,
That's why 64x64 is better for you, in those resolutions even not good spriters made some neat nice unique touches to art/enemies to bring them to their mod (like it should be) - and not to bring the mod - up to those "art".
In pixel art, I discovered it's the "scare" factor that limits you, task scares you even before you start doing it. When you win over that fear, start doing it, passing that fear bridge - you see that in those resolutions (64x64) - everyone can art, and that's is GREAT thing unique to Wolf3D/Keen modding - everyone can do it, make unique looking mods. I'm not looking for art quality - just some unique touches to give some nice interpretation to familiar art. Not amount of changed pixels, just the nice idea behind the alteration. You can start by recoloring, as the easiest change (with RecolorBMP) one to do to a sprite - to strongly change his visual look in the mod.

Quote:
so I had to work around my limitations; I didn't have a Team Raycast working with me. Smile

You can ask joining the team Wink, we need mappers, we can handle coding/art ourselves. It'll depend on approval of other team members though, and do be honest - I didn't play enough of your mod to have proper mapping opinion of you.

Quote:
Also, as I said before, there's quite a few people not as familiar with Blood and Hexen as you are, so for them it feels different.

I can suggested you other much more underused old games, some have art that can easily fit Wolf3D (like demo of "In Purciut of Greed" that has lowres version of art of final release)
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:04 am
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I've waited for this mod for over a year. Seems quite fun and atmospheric, but strangely, the save/load game system doesn't seem to work properly.
Whenever I quit the game, any saved games are lost; and whenever I try to load a saved game during a play, the mod simply freezes.

Help, anyone?
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:29 am
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Red reflection: that is really odd... I have not had anyone have any issues with saving or loading the game. You arenít using f8 and f9 to load and save are you?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:51 am
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ThunderEnema wrote:
Red reflection: that is really odd... I have not had anyone have any issues with saving or loading the game. You arenít using f8 and f9 to load and save are you?


Nope, I save/load using the main menu.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:20 pm
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Are you sure that it isnít just loading? Sometimes it takes a little bit.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:22 pm
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gerolf wrote:
Are you sure that it isnít just loading? Sometimes it takes a little bit.


Even so, why are my saved games deleted whenever I quit the game?
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:02 pm
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Are you running from a "read only" folder? If so, saving your games won't work right.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:16 pm
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Tricob wrote:
Are you running from a "read only" folder? If so, saving your games won't work right.



Thanks for the tip! The game's save system is working properly now. Help much appreciated!
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:21 pm
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Red Reflection: I'm glad you got it to work. Thanks for the help Tricob!

DoomJedi: I actually like the first Quake a lot; I like the lovecraftian feel/atmosphere it had, but I still think sprites vs 3D models would have looked better. My main issue with the Quake franchise is just how inconsistent it is... each Quake sequel just felt like a completely different game completely unrelated to the first. And I am in the beginning stages of planning my next mod and I definitely think I am going the 64x64 route. Do you normally just stick with using the Wolfenstein 3d palette?

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:50 pm
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I myself stick to SoD palette, just because of already existing art, convinience, no need to adjust existing art to new palette. In later version of BvsB mod we loaded external palette, that was just same ranges of more fitting shades so no art needed to be adjusted, but was sorry I did it because mod lost its vibrancy for more realistic colors, in that case it looked bad. We did consider using different palette for Legacy (but we didn't at the end), and we used multiple palettes (of existing old shooters, not new-made one) for Arrow mod for the skyboxes (while still keeping SoD one for the rest which added to the Wolf3D feel of it and the overall vibrancy - a good thing) as there was no much choice, as no good existing skybox will convert well to SoD palette.

Just a few days ago I learned for to rip sprite palette in ChaosEdit and set it for an image, which will add to my flexibility in the future.

So there are 4 options palette-wise - use SoD/Wolf3D, use new within same color ranges (no sprite adjustment needed, best choice at my humble opinion), new palette, and "premade" palette from other oldie (I have quite a collection, can send you)

Wolf3D/SoD palette is important for mods you want to keep classic look for (mostly semi-oldschool mods), or mods that need to be vibrant.
For a more realistic mods (dark, realistic etc) you can consider making new palette of same ranges, to get more realistic colors and not the vibrant Wolf3D look.
If you make a TC where you take most of the art from a particular oldie - you can use its palette.
For a good spriter that makes alot of new art (like WLHack) - you can work with new palette, but that's alot of hassle.
I'd not consider having new unique-ranged palette, as you need to make all the art for that palette in mind, and modding is about borrowing alot of art and art bases.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:19 pm
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Whatever palette you're using depends on what sort of theme your mod should be trying for. For the most part, I use the SOD palette because of additional shades of green. If I'm trying for colors that are more subdued, I'd choose a different palette entirely. I've created my own palette for this when the time comes; it has shades of grey, red, green, blue, purple, cyan, and brown. 8 additional shades of blue are put in to accommodate the colors of water, which do *not* use subdued colors.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:08 am
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The more I play this, the better I think of it. It does make to some extent a feel of its own, there are neat powerups and game elements.
Very impressive debut, again. Fun to discover things, it's very atmospheric, with scary enemies that require fast reaction.

I still don't understand how to use someoof the powerups like pendants and such - it says I have top limit and so can't pick more, yet not clear how to use them and they don't scroll in (-). Mod could use better explanation to some features.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:46 am
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Doomjedi: those pendants are called indurating amulets. There is a section about them in the READTHIS. Also, the keyboard controls section tells you to press ĎIí to use them.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:39 am
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I usually check the controls first to see what awaits me but i guess many people don't have time for that these days ><
I like the mod. Probably one of my favorite mods of the last years. Maybe cause i like Blood a lot and horror fantasy stuff. It's nicely made for what it is but i'm still not too fond about the difficulty =p

http://www.moddb.com/mods/beyond-the-grave/reviews
Btw. are those accounts real? They seem to have be made only for this and Gerolf's other mod on moddb.

doomjedi wrote:
I'd not consider having new unique-ranged palette, as you need to make all the art for that palette in mind, and modding is about borrowing alot of art and art bases.
In other words putting non-wolf3d graphics into wolf3d palette shouldn't be done? Modding is modifying an existing game. Borrowing is just a choice/way you pick to modify the game >< You either modify the existing graphics or replace them. Don't think that id Software thought modding is about borrowing (Beyond Wolfenstein II with Doom stuff).

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:32 pm
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I checked the main controls, that one was hiding in the next page mixed with standard controls.

Again, the more I play this mod - the more I like it. Enemies are dangerous and their placing keeps you always on your toes, game is fun and scary.
And after discovering how to use all powerups - some are very useful and add much to the game tactics and resource managing.
I like how many powerups there are - I'd prefer them to use lesser amount of different keys as it's confusing, too many keys for a Wolf3D mod, and other powerups should have used simpler inventory scrolling system like other powerups have.

Quote:
Btw. are those accounts real? They seem to have be made only for this and Gerolf's other mod on moddb.
Intriguing question Wink

Quote:
In other words putting non-wolf3d graphics into wolf3d palette shouldn't be done?

I specifically didn't say that. I'll quote what I said:
Quote:
Also some do not convert well to the palette of the mod and lose alof of colors/details. When I need to do this - I do alot of manual recoloring later to return to the sprite its lost beauty and colors.

You can see that in the mod alot of greens turned to grey etc. Lost their original look.
You can and should use art from other games converted into Wolf3D palette, you KNOW I use such alot in my mods. Art from different oldies. But many of them require extra work to really bring them into Wolf3D in a proper way.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:29 pm
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I donít know if those accounts are real or fake. I did post the moddb.com site to multiple sources (like Facebook, a classic FPS fans page, etc.). Gerolf has done the same. I know at least one of the reviewers knows Gerolf; I donít know who the others are.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:55 pm
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Ok i see. Was just wondering cause all of them registered on same day and wrote it at almost same hour while wolf mods usually don't seem to have that amount of review traffic there. Congrats then =D

doomjedi wrote:
You can and should use art from other games converted into Wolf3D palette
Well, you can do that but saying "you should use from other games" is basically encouraging people to do something illegal if you think about it.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:59 pm
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Quote:
Again, the more I play this mod - the more I like it. Enemies are dangerous and their placing keeps you always on your toes, game is fun and scary.
And after discovering how to use all powerups - some are very useful and add much to the game tactics and resource managing.
I like how many powerups there are - I'd prefer them to use lesser amount of different keys as it's confusing, too many keys for a Wolf3D mod, and other powerups should have used simpler inventory scrolling system like other powerups have.


Too many control keys is a valid criticism; in the upcoming v1.01, I will be lessening the amount of keys used. I will also be including a .pdf (that has pictures and visuals) with more detailed information on how to play the game. I was going to include the .pdf in this version, but it would have pushed the release date further back (and I really didn't want to do that again, especially since Halloween was a perfect day for release). I felt the version now was good enough for a v1.00 release. I may also consider lessening the difficulty in v1.01 as well (particularly on easier difficulty levels).

On another note, I am glad you are enjoying the game.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:00 pm
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The reviewers were friends of mine who had played BTG prior to release that I asked to sign up to Moddb to review it and some chose to review my addon as well. One of them is a close friend, another is my brother, and two of them are internet friends. I asked for people to download and review but so far only close friends have been nice enough to do so on there.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:42 pm
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Then modding is illegal.

This is not an indie games forum. We all mod here, and use art from other oldies (that's why we don't sell them - we just can't). I don't know too many modders here who can make 8dir enemies from zero.
Legal or not, games are so old that noone cares.
When they will care, related mods will be removed by request of the owner.

Yes, I encourage in a modding forum to use art from other oldies.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:31 am
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doomjedi wrote:
Then modding is illegal.

Most mods definitely are, from a strictly legal standpoint. But as you said, no one cares anymore, or not enough to make a fuss about it.

Quote:
This is not an indie games forum. We all mod here, and use art from other oldies (that's why we don't sell them - we just can't). I don't know too many modders here who can make 8dir enemies from zero.
Legal or not, games are so old that noone cares.
When they will care, related mods will be removed by request of the owner.

Yes, I encourage in a modding forum to use art from other oldies.

Why not encourage them to get better art skills and create their own? Yes, it takes extra time, but the overall quality of the mod (and modding in general) would be vastly improved.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:14 am
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Nice friends you got. Mine would be too lazy or post nonsense on the front page ><
PDF sounds nice and i don't think it has too many keys. It's just people being comfortable.

If you want to get some clicks on moddb you should post a news article there summing up the release which makes it to the front page. Just make sure it's not gonna get archived which needs some requirements and the moderators are acting bit random/subjective regarding what's worth being on front page.

doomjedi wrote:
Then modding is illegal.
Does the end justify the means?
Modding is not illegal. Just some ways of doing. It's not only because copyrights but also to keep some moral boundaries before everyone in the town starts looting.
Well immorality seems of benefit so why should anyone care. The world is Sodom and Gomorrah part 2 ^^
People are not forced to use 8-dir enemies. It's their choice if and how to. If someone wants to do it like this for any reason it's ok but then the person should also live with the possible aftermath.
Since we all gonna die and the universe will end one day nothing of this has any meaning or is right or wrong anyways ><

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:31 am
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Guys, we have had this discussion before, with the same participants. Seeing it happen again implies that the respective viewpoints won't be changed anyway, so let's get back on topic.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:17 am
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Atina wrote:
Just make sure it's not gonna get archived which needs some requirements and the moderators are acting bit random/subjective regarding what's worth being on front page.

I thought so too, then I found it it's not the case.
All my archived posts had no screenshots in them, and since I started adding them - ALL get to front page.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:18 pm
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Keep playing this daily, very engaging mod, good enemy placing and one of the scariest setting in a Wolf3D mod ever.

Alot of stuff to like, survival, resource management, very subtile weapon balancing, sounds are great too. More than a sum of its parts.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:07 pm
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Glad you are enjoying the game Doomjedi! How far into it are you?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:09 pm
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MadWolf (Soldat555) has put up his first LET'S PLAY of BTG on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhwiQDrdfn4

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:19 pm
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ThunderEnema wrote:
How far into it are you?

Don't know, my HUD doesn't show it.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:46 am
   Subject: Re: Beyond the Grave [NOW RELEASED]
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Why does the HUD need to tell you what level you are on in order for you to know where you are in the game?

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:04 am
   Subject: Re: Beyond the Grave [NOW RELEASED]
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In most mods, the statusbar is the only thing telling you what level you're on. We can't consult an overhead map that tells us this unless the modder had that feature put in.
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