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Toughest Battle in a Wolfenstein Mod
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Majik Monkee
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 1:47 pm
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Out of all the mods you've ever played (though this can include the original Wolfenstein and SOD also), I'd like to know which boss battle(s) gave you the biggest challenge. If you wish to make note of more than one especially difficult one, feel free. They can be ones that you considered challenging because of method of attack of the boss, environment you fight them in (inlcuding interference by other enemies if that's a factor) or any other factors that make it a difficult boss fight. Feel free to use as much detail as desired in describing your encounters. Here's mine...

It's a tossup, because the abililty of a lot of the SR bosses to grab health items makes them a huge pain, but my absolute toughest fight where I almost threw in the towel was the end of WSJ's "Coming of the Storm". I won't give away details for those who haven't finished the game, but basically, the boss is very hard to see at times, moves very quickly, and his attacks are devastating, even if you manage to dodge a direct hit. The immortal enemies you must deal with during the battle are the icing on the cake, since the boss itself is challenging enough to begin with. Luckily, I hung in there until my 40th reload, when I managed to emerge victorious... Cheesy Grin

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 2:07 pm
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The battle against Fleischacker WSJ's "Project Eisenritter", hands down. Getting there alone is incredibly difficult, with the iron soldiers and other bosses and all, then you get there, and God help you if you shoot an inactive soldier. A very hard fight in a very hard game.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 2:57 pm
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I agree with Majik, I still haven't beaten WSJ's "Coming Of The Storm" final boss! He's really hard!
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 8:36 pm
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He is not that hard. The Totenmutant was harder for me. Darn 2 stage bosses!
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 5:04 am
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Out of all the mods I've played, the toughest -yet absolutely beatable, needless to say- battle I've ever found myself in takes place on the ninth floor of episode 5 in 'The Golden Episodes'. No doubt that's the one. That floor, on the highest skill level, is hell, whether you come from floor 8 or you play it from scratch. Try to make through it alive without cheating, if you dare... Twisted Evil

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 5:51 am
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The Totenmutant was difficult, but if you play your cards right and stick by the door to which you enter that area, relying on the stashes of ammo earlier in the level, you can get rid of most of the supporting oppostition without too much trouble. I didn't find the Totenmutant itself to be terribly difficult, but that's because there's sufficient cover and ammo in his area to make it a fair fight if you're experienced in fighting bosses...it definitely was a cool boss, though...

Ariel, didn't you design the Golden Episodes? I thought you did...which doesn't make boss fights any less difficult, but usually if I've designed something, I know the "tricks" to making the battle less challenging...still, I'll have to play that one...I'm a glutton for punishment...Laughing

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 6:26 am
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Well, Majik, I didn't find that out. I was doing more of Strafe and shoot in the middle.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 7:46 am
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Majik Monkee wrote:
Ariel, didn't you design the Golden Episodes? I thought you did...which doesn't make boss fights any less difficult, but usually if I've designed something, I know the "tricks" to making the battle less challenging...still, I'll have to play that one...I'm a glutton for punishment...Laughing


Yes, Majik, I'm the criminal mind behind 'The Golden Episodes'. It's natural that something you've crafted proves easier for you than how it can prove for others... Usually, that's what happens... Just usually, because other people can be better at playing your own creations, too... I'm a pretty decent Spear/Wolf player, and of course there are better ones than me; but even in 'The Golden Episodes, I'm sure a few must have overcome my performance. ack and Mikey X come to mind right now, perhaps there are others too... Wink

Talking about episode 5's floor 9 in particular, yes, I know some tricks than can make things easier, or even save your butt... Just some, because that's everything there is! But anyway, even being the author of the mod, I still think that floor offers the hardest battle I've ever experienced. Hard, but absolutely beatable. To that, add its tune, "what" you must face in order to finish it, the text you read after you've escaped, and it results in a great deal of fun. Yeah, I like that floor a lot. I feel like playing it again... Mr Green

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 9:50 am
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I see your point...now I just have to play your mod all the way through (I did download it and give it a spin briefly, but it was during one of my "busy phases", and I never got back to playing it in earnest). I love a good challenge...not to mention a good butt kicking. Very Happy

I have a confession to make...for the longest time, I could NOT beat Draven's level in the original HOS. ack designed the level, so obviously it was new territory for me when I first played it. I didn't have trouble getting too the boss, or even fighting him for the most part, but I would abuse my ammo and health resources, and wind up having to leave the main boss room during the fight, and seek health and ammo in the midst of the horde of enemies that are unleashed when you start fighting Draven. I requested some tips from ack, which he kindly gave me, but I still managed to get schooled until a couple months ago when I finally managed to conserve my resources and play carefully enough to not only kill the boss, but actually exit the level alive as well. Embarassed

I've been testing some of my most recent levels I've designed for O:L, one of which is a boss level. I was giving it a spin last night, and frequently found myself getting schooled. The question arose in my mind...is it because the level is well designed and challenging, or because it's poorly designed and has unrealistic expectations? Well, I like to think it's the first one...it's totally winnable, and in my book, that means it's just challenging. By this point, most of us Wolfers have sent hundreds of bosses in a variety of mods to Boot Hill, and the boss himself is rarely the biggest challenge of these confrontations...I definitely take my hat off to anyone who can dish out a boss fight that sends experienced players packing a time or two... Twisted Evil

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 12:30 am
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The toughest battle I ever had in a Wolfenstein Mod, no contest the original HOS level 15 by far, I almost gave up on that level. But I did manage to get through it. OH yeah I blabbed my mouth about that. Laughing I think that was the level where you had 4 Webstors in one room, yeah that was a tough level, of course knowing me I play on Death Incarnate. Twisted Evil
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 4:58 am
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I forgot to mention one other one...the final battle of Operation Heimzahlung. I felt a definite sense of dread when I saw the overwhelming forces you are forced to deal with as you battle the final boss, but when the smoke cleared and I realized I was still in one piece (and surrounded by dead bodies), I felt a very definite sense of satisfaction. The best thing about challenging boss battles is the feeling that you've actually accomplished something when you win a mod. That, and when it's a final boss, there's a very important sense of realism that comes from the final character having strong defenses...if I was an evil leader of a power military force, you can bet I'd surround myself with nothing but my toughest soldiers, and a lot of em'... Twisted Evil

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 7:27 pm
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Note to Self: Tone down the boss levels. Laughing

I'm not entirely sure what the toughest battle in an add-on for me was... I've played many add-ons which were tough to the point of being unfair and frustrating (like those levels that have a bizillion SS with no health or ammo around), but for some reason, I tend to forget those...

I do remember how tough the fight with Baron von Schmitt in Spear Resurrection was (and sorry to keep using SR as an example; it's just what came to mind)... the Baron himself was pretty dangerous, but all his men pouring out of those doors made things a lot worse. Also, the fight with Hitler's ghost was pretty challenging... the whole level was maze-like and confusing, and you had the other ghosts to worry about (especially the Angel of Death) while you were busy trying to destroy Hitler.

I guess the key to creating a tough boss level is giving the player enough opposition from other enemies/hazards that he's struggling to stay alive while he tries to fight the boss... If he concentrates on the boss too much, something else will kill him. This is why there've been many games where the final boss has an ability to create/summon lesser enemies to aid in his defense.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 5:38 am
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Ah, but see, what sets battles like the ones mentioned in your mods (WSJ, by the way, is the winner of the "most difficult final boss battles" award Laughing) and SR is that while they are indeed difficult battles, they are by no means unwinnable or unfair. If there are sufficient resources, ample places to run or take cover, and a defineable strategy to winning (curse people who release games with fights they themselves can't win!), then it may be difficult, but it's difficult because of good design and strategy, not poor design and cheap enemy and ammo placement.

I hesitate to say so, but a final boss battle that may be considered difficult more because of "cheapness" than purely well thought out strategy would be the AOD level battle of "Operation: Hundscheisse" (for anyone who's actually played that far into the game). The player is swarmed upon by enemies, with very few resources and very little room to run for cover. The health supply is a necessity, because it's impossible to avoid a lot of the hits you take just trying to get to the boss. Yeah, it's winnable, but I've always felt there was something slightly unfair about the whole thing (especially how the level begins, for those of you familiar with it)... Twisted Evil

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 8:04 pm
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[quote="WSJ"]Note to Self: Tone down the boss levels. Laughing

Music to my ears Wolf. Very Happy

I think my favorite battle was the one in HoS where I had to battle the two headed dog thing. If not for a map flaw (ha ha ha) that enabled me to hide like a coward behind pillars, I could not have taken out that thing with a shotgun let alone any other weapon.

Have I ever mentioned I hate Boss levels?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 4:20 am
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Really? One of my favorite things about Wolfenstein mods as well as the originals is the boss confrontations. I must confess...the original SOD bored me...it was very much like playing levels from the original Wolfenstein, and at that time, I did not have an appreciation for the beauty of well designed maps alone. The fact that there were so many bosses in the span of around 20 levels is what kept me going, because I loved not only the challenge, but the fact that the bosses were new and interesting characters in the game that was otherwise full of stuff I'd seen already.

Yeah...Cerberus kind of loses something when he can't nail you with his giant fireballs...believe it or not, though, I usually wound up killing myself ON the spikes while trying to hide behind them. Oddly enough, I've had more folks ask for help beating the Cerberus in the final stage than the first one, though I'm not sure why...

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 5:02 am
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Majik Monkee wrote:
the original SOD bored me...it was very much like playing levels from the original Wolfenstein

You know, anything can be challenging if you want it to Matt. Try playing Episode 1 with just a knife, or try to race through all of Spear of Destiny without saving. I think the way you handle your surroundings is the biggest way to define the difficulty factor.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 5:34 am
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You're right about that, Chris...I used to play the same way all the time...machine gun only, very slow and methodical, and then pick off the boss with the chaingun (or machine gun for the wussy ones). Later in time, though, I found it was a very cool challenge to see how long I could last with just the knife, as you mentioned, without getting filled full of holes. Until a few weeks ago, I'd never tried speed play before (believe it or not, I'm still not that familiar with most of the original maps), but I was pleased to find that I could make par on like the first four levels of Wolfenstein E1. I agree that, depending on how you approach it, there's lots of challenge to be found in the original games still.

When you just rush through the levels without paying attention to them, like I mentioned before, you really miss out on a lot of cool touches and cool use of guard placement etc...heck...I don't think I found even 30% of the secret areas legitimately in SOD and Wolf3D, and a lot of them look very cool from the map editors. The original Wolfenstein still has a lot of newness left in it for me if I just take a chance to really sit down with it again...however, I'm taking a nice long break (maybe for good) after Operation: Letzterschutz is finished, so maybe that would be a good time for it...Very Happy

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 8:01 pm
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wolfie3dfan wrote:
Have I ever mentioned I hate Boss levels?


I'm thinking about leaving out boss levels in my next TC, since I'm aiming for a certain degree of realism. I still want to throw in "special" enemies like tanks and mounted machineguns, but they don't really count as "bosses."

However, like Majik Monkee, a big part of what kept me going in the original games (and in add-ons) was the anticipation of fighting the next boss. So I love a good boss fight, and that's one of the reasons why I've tried to make some of my boss levels challenging (while not being impossible to beat). Plus, I figured that if they weren't really difficult to beat, the experienced Wolfers would complain that they were too easy... but I don't think I've gotten that complaint yet... Mr Green

It's difficult to find a balance between "fair" and "challenging" that everyone will enjoy... I try to pick the level of difficulty that I would enjoy -- hard, but not next to impossible -- but what may be fun for me may not be fun for someone else, because everyone has their own style of playing.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 4:39 am
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Your next mod? *drool* Razz Laughing

It's really hard to find a balance that will suit all players...there's such a wide variety of skill levels to be found with all of the folks who enjoy playing mods. I always thought life would be a lot easier if there was a little more variation available in designing levels for different difficulties. By that, I mean bosses that appear only on different skill levels (like with enemies), and maybe keys that do the same (in case a level had no boss on a certain skill level). Not only would that solve the boss problem, but imagine how much fun it would be to have the key in a different place on every skill level? I know not all levels are designed to be that changeable, but I remember on Outlaws (totally different game, I know) that the crowbar and some other items changed where they were depending on what difficulty you were playing...the easier the difficulty, the easier the location...something I've been thinking about, anyway... Geek

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 6:11 pm
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The hardest battles I've ever fought have been the constant boss encounters in "The Revenge of Poopdeck Willie".

Keep in mind, these aren't fair- or fun for that matter- fights. Just so freaking hard I pounded the desk in frustration. Honestly, who in their right minds considers a battle against two Gretels with an understocked machinegun a fair fight?!
This addon will be so much fun to review!
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2004 9:38 am
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Laughing I actually downloaded that mod and played the first few levels of each episode. I did notice heavy usage of repeated bosses throughout the levels. Yeah...it's definitely not a fair fight if you trigger more than one Grettle (or I think there are multiple Hans bosses also) at once, but I found it pretty easy to only alert one at a time. The last level of the first episode actually had a place where you almost have to fight two Hans bosses as once...that's a pain in the ass. Poopdeck Willie is the easiest thing about the whole game...at least in E1... Twisted Evil

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