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Wolf3D and voxels
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Ripper
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 5:08 pm
   Subject: Wolf3D and voxels
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This is a resurrection of the thread "[curious] VOXELS in Wolf3d". I never noticed this thread! Sarcastic Strange...

I guess, the main problem of this would be speed. Normally speed wouldn't mean anything in these times when speaking of such "simple" games, but you all know, Microsoft is sponsored by Intel Mr Green
Also it >may< not be that easy to draw a >real< 3D voxel object. All I've done with voxels yet was only pseudo 3D, as the landscapes I was drawing only had upper sides, but weren't vertically free in space. Here's an old screenshot of my attempt of improving the mars demo and implementing the description of that demo with several improvements, of course Mr Green


The experience I got, when developing those clouds, leaded to our OZ engine and of course to the cloud sky tutorial.

Anyways, one thing I'd like to know is, how these objects would be saved? Would they be some X*X*X array of voxel colors? Then we'd have the problem, that the EMS pages are limited to 16kB which would give us a maximum size of 25*25*25 voxels.
For 64*64*64 we'd need 256kB that's almost half of the main memory!

Also would the voxels all be aligned to the level axes or would those axes be freely moveable?

But it is really a quite interesting project... perhaps I'll find some time during the next... year? Crying or Very sad
Let's hope my interest will supercede the lack of time Mr Green

My fantasy creates some nice images of how those 2D sprites would become 3D voxeled objects... really nice Mr Green
I'd love to see them become real...
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 5:31 pm
   Subject: Re: Wolf3D and voxels
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Ripper wrote:
Anyways, one thing I'd like to know is, how these objects would be saved? Would they be some X*X*X array of voxel colors? Then we'd have the problem, that the EMS pages are limited to 16kB which would give us a maximum size of 25*25*25 voxels.
For 64*64*64 we'd need 256kB that's almost half of the main memory!


One thing I've never understood, Wolf has little memory, which results in loss of cool features being added, yet ROTT (same engine, enhancements, etc) can run everything (like huge maps/massive amounts of sprites) with out problems. I'm no coder, but I do understand things on a basic superficial level. Could Wolf be made to "use" memory the same (exact!) way as ROTT??

Ripper wrote:

Also would the voxels all be aligned to the level axes or would those axes be freely moveable?

This question I can't really answer, but I think I understand what you are pertaining too. Maybe you should download Ken's demo, and see how voxel objects react with the environment, and are rendered. Perhaps this could be "backward-engineered" into wolf?

If you are talking about animation, as in sprite animation, well, from my experience, every body part/moving object is very ridgid. Animation looks kind of stiff and mechanicle. Forget realistic weight/postureing, etc.

Ripper wrote:

But it is really a quite interesting project... perhaps I'll find some time during the next... year? Crying or Very sad
Let's hope my interest will supercede the lack of time Mr Green


If you managed to work on this with result, you would be the greatest wolf programmer of all time, and I'd draw anything that you'd ever need for a project ever, even when I'm doing professional graphics for a living!!!!!! Mr Green Mr Green
Ripper
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 5:46 pm
   Subject: Re: Wolf3D and voxels
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Well, ROTT is a protected mode programm and therefore there aren't any problems releated to real mode memory management. With 16-bit registers you can only address 64kB of memory together with the segment registers you go up to 1MB (including DOS, video memory, EMS pages, BIOS, ...). With 32-bit registers you can address 4GB which makes life so much easier. But that's another world. So this would require to port Wolf to protected mode.

You mean, that demo where you fly through this strange rocky environment and shoot it to hell? Those weren't rotating objects, so I can't compare... I guess, we'll see what's possible...

Hmm, interesting offer Twisted Evil Mr Green
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 5:53 pm
   Subject: Re: Wolf3D and voxels
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Ahhhh...protected mode! Smile

That's what I was trying to say. Could it be done, and if so, what would the difficulites be/how long would it take? Hmmn...

Ripper wrote:
With 16-bit registers you can only address 64kB of memory together with the segment registers you go up to 1MB (including DOS, video memory, EMS pages, BIOS, ...).


Ok, now this is all making sense to me. So games like Doom, ROTT, Duke3D all run in protected mode. Quake I would be 32-bit I presume?

I think there would be lots of advantages in updating/porting wolf to protected mode... Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:05 pm
   Subject: Re: Wolf3D and voxels
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So Voxels in wolf3d? Definitely an interesting approach. I think somebody needs to check out new wolf though, as it had 3d model support. However, I guess 3d models and wolf would be going to far, but I was just wondering what is the advantage of doing voxels, over porting wolf to opengl mode and doing 3d models?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 2:00 pm
   Subject: Re: Wolf3D and voxels
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Ringman wrote:
So Voxels in wolf3d? Definitely an interesting approach. I think somebody needs to check out new wolf though, as it had 3d model support. However, I guess 3d models and wolf would be going to far, but I was just wondering what is the advantage of doing voxels, over porting wolf to opengl mode and doing 3d models?


There is no real advantage, I guess it's the fact that you will have 3d objects in Wolf, without the gl and high-rez stuff. Everything keeps the pixelated wolf look, which is essential in my opinion.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 4:06 am
   Subject: Wolf3D and voxels
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Hey Ripper, I found this little tid bit while searching the net: http://www.programmersheaven.com/download/14164/download.aspx

It's a Doom style engine with terrain voxels. It's pretty sweet, but crashes when I play for longer than 30 seconds. Maybe something like this could be implemented, or at least, the previously mentioned ideas such as object sprites, etc. Also, Ken released the source to his Voxlap engine!

Have you looked into this by chance? Wink

If so, have you made any progress? I've been itching to play with Slab6 again, as I was just examining the Shadow Warrior voxels.....oh a V-Wolf would be so sweet! Another idea would be to make the wolf wall textures 64x64x5(or some small number) so there can be depth, like the bricks could have depth and texture, like in the cracks and grooves between the bricks, or like wall with flags hanging off of them...the elevator texture's switch could be 3d! ARHGHGGHGH!!





Crying or Very sad
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 4:08 am
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Also, since Dos4gw is here...could this now be a reality?? Smile
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 4:16 am
   Subject: Wolf3D and voxels
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A Retard wrote:
SHIIITT!!! I haven't been paying attention to this forum.

@Ripper: I can make some models for you, no problem! The only small issue is that I use Ken Silverman's programs, so the voxel model is "written" in .kvx format.

I wonder if you can contact him and ask him how to convert it to something you can use? I know nothing of file formats/code, etc.


To repeat:

SHIIITT!!! I haven't been paying attention to this forum.

@Ripper: I can make some models for you, no problem! The only small issue is that I use Ken Silverman's programs, so the voxel model is "written" in .kvx format.

I wonder if you can contact him and ask him how to convert it to something you can use? I know nothing of file formats/code, etc.

Sorry!!! I just reread the Wolf4gw thread. Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed


Ok, I'll get right the F$$$ on it. I should pay more attention to these things. Ripper, you are a total genius, I should pay pal you some cash for this. You are amazing!!!

Texzk and "Secret Progremmer I'm collaborating with" READ THIS.
Ripper
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 3:54 am
   Subject: Re: Wolf3D and voxels
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Did I miss something? Mr Green

I'm currently (since a few months) learning for an oral exam next Tuesday *brrr* and I still haven't found the time to reimplement my SDL version of Wolf to minimize the obvious differences in the source code, so that tutorials are easier to apply to the new version.

Well, as you said, the source code for voxlab is freely available, so the file format shouldn't be a problem.
But I haven't done anything about this yet. I had a few discussions with a friend at the university, but it will probably need quite a good processor to get enough frames per second to enjoy the voxel sprites.
About the voxel walls: I don't know if this really looked good. Hmmm, of course, you don't have to give the voxels the same depth for walls, so it might be cool! Very interesting Very Happy

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 3:35 pm
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You know, just this morning I was thinking "Hmm... we haven't heard from Ripper in a while..."

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