DieHard Wolfers

[Tricob]

Wolf4SDL has opened the door to lots of new features that we couldn't do before. Memory is no longer an obstacle. Now that Mac-enstein 2nd Encounter and WolfDX are out, what's left to do in a Wolf3D mod that we haven't seen in a TC yet?

Please give your input and ideas. Or, if you just prefer a simple Blake4SDL port over seeing another TC, that's fine, too.

[vermil]

A bit of a strange question imo.

Wolf4SDL doesn't technically add any new features to the Wolf3D engine. The lack of a memory limit simply allows you to add more features to your mod than previously allowed.

The day someone comes up with a feature that would single handedly overrun the memory limit of past Wolf3D engines is the day you say "Wolf4SDL has opened the door to lots of new features that we couldn't do before".

[doomjedi]

Non-leaking ceilings? )
Ceilings without pixel gap from walls?

Scenery with constant radius damage? Defence state for enemies? Real inventory "heretic-style" HUD? Electric Fences?
Bots? Multiplayer? Coop/Deathmatch? Gamemodes like CTF, Domination and such? Underwater swimming done by quiet teleportation into blue-fogged level spot? Partly-transparent ceilings?

Real bug-free sniper zoom?

Smart/dynamic lighting/shadowing? Auto shadowing (for external areas with "sky ceiling" for textures near walls that cause shadow? (Make a map automatically make in one picked direction on every map to color the floor texture near it in darker shade to reflect shadowing? Or autoshadow for floor texture around sprite?

Better AI?

More configurable menus for mods?

Better and easy external files support including external text files, image files itc?

Multiple-palette support? Or "more than 256 palette" support?

Auto-level generation feature for a mod?

Simply walking-around non-enemy pedestrians?

...I can keep going and going.....

[BrotherTank]

Tricob wrote:

Wolf4SDL has opened the door to lots of new features that we couldn't do before. Memory is no longer an obstacle. Now that Mac-enstein 2nd Encounter and WolfDX are out, what's left to do in a Wolf3D mod that we haven't seen in a TC yet?

Please give your input and ideas. Or, if you just prefer a simple Blake4SDL port over seeing another TC, that's fine, too.

Huh?? It almost sounds like you are putting a death sentence on the game again.. Or are you saying that because Mac-enstein and your own WolfDX that the future is dead?? It sort of comes across like that is what you are saying... Or....

Are you just looking for features or ideas?
Is this a general type of idea gathering of where to take the source genre wise?
Or is this ideas for the DX source that you've been working on??

I'm not really quite sure what you want as you can really do anything with the various sources within the limits of the memory available in each of them and each persons own limitations in programming, graphic creation, and imagination... etc....

I see things as the SDL version has accomplished 2 things, with one being Major and the other minor... those being:

I wrote:

Major - It allows the game to live on into the future because the source now runs under the new 32 and 64 bit operating systems without the need of say DosBox or VDMSound... That is what I see as the major accomplishment of the SDL source.... Without this, I could honestly see the eventual death of the game and the community (within whatevers left of my lifetime).... This allows the game to live on and allows future generations of people to continue to play, modify, and study the game that really started the 3d craze so many years ago....

Minor - This is the secondary bonus to the source being ported into SDL is the memory limit, or should I say the possible lack of a limit... (We haven't found what the new limit is... I'm sure there is some limit somewhere - [ie.. the amount of RAM each person has in their machine is different and the amount of free ram is also varied by the OS's, TSR's, and other programs running, in each of those environments]).

I'm not sure how everyone else sees it, but I see it as the SDL source gave the game life again.... It gave it the possibility of future life... It removed the death sentence that was hanging around it's neck. Now the future of the game is whatever anyone really wants it to be... As long as there is interest, the games life isn't limited....

What can be done with it in the future?? I guess that depends on how far any one programmer or group decides to take it. I know people talk about converting the sound portion of the engine to something new... But really I do think that if we go too far, we risk changing the game into another personality that isn't recognizable as the Wolf3d that we know...

But where would I like to see the game go?? What features could be added?? What features should be added?? I guess that really is only limited by the limitations of ones own imagination really... And with those features does it mean that your (and I mean anyones mods or TC's) game will find a place in that future?? I guess that depends on the future tastes of the people yet to come, that will have access to the games created with this new source...

I could go on, but I'll end it here and see how other people view things... But I do have one last thing to say... Thanks, once again Ripper!...

Greg
BrotherTank

[Metal Overlord]

@Tricob: There's no wrong in taking pride in ones work, but you're making it sound like WolfDX is the most fantastic thing that ever happened to the Wolfenstein community.

And I believe there's plenty more things that can be done with the engine, especially since Wolf4SDL came. There's always a lot of people with different ideas. Who knows, maybe someone successfully implements alpha-transparency for Wolf?

[Tricob]

BT wrote:

Are you just looking for features or ideas?

Both, though I'm not really looking for ideas relating to WolfDX, nor any of my other upcoming mods. This is just a "for fun" thread.

Quote:

Is this a general type of idea gathering of where to take the source genre wise?

Yes, though I had in mind features that would enhance the gameplay. But sometimes features show up that you think *wouldn't* enhance the gameplay ... until someone approaches it differently, and opens the gameplay to something radically different.

Quote:

I could go on, but I'll end it here and see how other people view things... But I do have one last thing to say... Thanks, once again Ripper!...

I second that thanks, and may I also say - Excellent work, too ... to both of you (BT for his SDL Bunker source).

DoomJedi - Havoc and WLHack have achieved a lot of this in the Wolf code already. I do have a couple of light-related ideas to put in the WolfDX code, but they won't be seen in the first few levels.

vermil wrote:

The day someone comes up with a feature that would single handedly overrun the memory limit of past Wolf3D engines is the day you say "Wolf4SDL has opened the door to lots of new features that we couldn't do before".

AlumiN beat me to that one, then.

OT -

Metal Overlord wrote:

@Tricob: There's no wrong in taking pride in ones work, but you're making it sound like WolfDX is the most fantastic thing that ever happened to the Wolfenstein community.

No, that's definitely not my intention, and I'm sorry if I came off that way. WolfDX has a bunch of old features and one or two new ones. Many 16-bit TCs do much more than the WolfDX demo does. The full version of WolfDX won't have many more features than the demo, as the game's characters are starting to take the mod in their own direction. Because of this, most of the TC's major changes will be Actor-related. I know that doesn't sound very exciting as far as gameplay, but again - how you approach the mod's features makes all the difference.

Quote:

And I believe there's plenty more things that can be done with the engine, especially since Wolf4SDL came. There's always a lot of people with different ideas. Who knows, maybe someone successfully implements alpha-transparency for Wolf?

Alpha-transparency? I don't remember hearing about this one. Could you elaborate, please? Thank you.

[doomjedi]

A turret that you can connect to and shoot with, then disconnect and go you killing way Like in Shadow Warrior

[AlumiuN]

@Doomjedi - I was actually planning most of those features for Adenovirus. I did have a battle computer with an automap, diagnostic system and 15 slot inventory working, but I fiddled with it and broke it. :p Partly transparent ceilings (I had this working too) can be done if you draw a sky image before you start drawing the walls (which I think is done anyway), and then in the DrawFloor(?) routine, where the line "col=whatever" is (two places), just make it so that it doesn't draw that pixel if col = 0xff. I don't have the exact code on hand, but that was what had to be done.

[doomjedi]

AlumiuN wrote:

:p Partly transparent ceilings (I had this working too) can be done if you draw a sky image before you start drawing the walls (which I think is done anyway), and then in the DrawFloor(?) routine, where the line "col=whatever" is (two places), just make it so that it doesn't draw that pixel if col = 0xff. I don't have the exact code on hand, but that was what had to be done.

Partially transparent ceilings is a feature that was implemented on 16bit Sonder (by Tricob), but for Eridu and Warsaw use, not for the Sonder itself...SDLSonder doesn't have this feature yet.

Shadow Warrior Turrets I needed for Eridu SpaceShip levels.

[Metal Overlord]

@Tricob: Alpha-transparency is when you use a textures alpha channel (only the more "advanced" formats have this, like PNG, TGA and DDS) to define a texture's transparency level. Alpha channels are greyscale, so black means fully see-through and white is fully visible. All greys in between are different levels of transparency. But I guess it would require the engine to be recoded for 32-bit color first.

[Tricob]

Metal Overlord - I think 16-bit color would do the trick, actually; remember that you said it was all grey-scale, so it doesn't require an enormous amount of new colors. Perhaps I'm overlooking the obvious, but other than glass, where else would this feature prove useful?

DoomJedi - Once again, I haven't gotten far on Shadow Warrior yet. Do you have a YouTube link or something that demonstrates this feature? Thanks.

Edit: Also something to add to this thread's list of TC features: Drive around in a tank.

[Soldat 555]

Don't forget, Klooni! That mod is the closest thing to a true WolfenDoom experience that you're gonna get!

You know, nevermind about coding stuff, what about themes? I've seen medieval fantasy mods (Hell, I made one), horror style, and the classic WW2 theme but I've not seen the themes listed below.

*Iraq war (whether the current one or Desert Storm)
*Civil war
*Wild West
*MechWarrior style
*WW2 (In the pacific like fighting on Iwo Jima)
*Gang wars
*Vietnam


Joshua M@d Wolf Waight

[AlumiuN]

I was considering doing a MechWarrior style one, and, in fact, my Wolfenstein mod was going to have vehicles (although in this case just a bigger suit ).

[doomjedi]

Tricob wrote:

Metal Overlord - I think 16-bit color would do the trick, actually; remember that you said it was all grey-scale, so it doesn't require an enormous amount of new colors. Perhaps I'm overlooking the obvious, but other than glass, where else would this feature prove useful?

DoomJedi - Once again, I haven't gotten far on Shadow Warrior yet. Do you have a YouTube link or something that demonstrates this feature? Thanks.

Edit: Also something to add to this thread's list of TC features: Drive around in a tank.

"Shadow Warrior" has such turret even in his first level...how far did you get in it, heh ?

Well...it was he FIRST time such feature was used...but since then...every "vehicle" shooter uses it..."Unreal Tournament"s "Onslaught" game mode..."Halo" too uses such....
I don't know why you need a screenshot....the idea is simple.
Weapon that belongs to the level and not the player...you get to a spot where is something like rotational turret or something...you press "use" key, and then youre connected to the turret. You can rotate it left or right using the arrow keys and such...and shoot enemies around.
Then you press" use" key again to disconnect from it on go on in your killing spree

More advanced version of this is "non-stationary" turrent...which is called a "vehicle" Tank is a good example

[Tricob]

Soldat 555 wrote:

*Vietnam

Wasn't Trench Warfare set in the Vietnam era? Maybe I'm wrong.

[Tricob]

doomjedi wrote:

Well...it was the FIRST time such feature was used...but since then...every "vehicle" shooter uses it..."Unreal Tournament"s "Onslaught" game mode..."Halo" too uses such....
I don't know why you need a screenshot....the idea is simple.

I was wanting to see it in action, actually. I do like the concept, but it'd be self-defeating if I built this feature into the code, developed the levels and gameplay to use the feature well, but then I'm informed my implementation is missing a crucial element that gave the feature the "feel" that it did.

[doomjedi]

Well....concept-wise it's basically "map-spot"-specific HUD weapon (with strong firepower) so to speak...weapon you can use only on certain spot of the map...with "use" key

It would also be amaizing for Boss levels....and also you'll be able to make Boss level without the need to give the player chainguns too fast on "too early" maps. Boss Area can have such weapons you can use....
Especially cool if they'll be with strong firepower, but "hard to get to" being placed in hard spots or behind the Boss...so you'll have to sneak or find tactic ways to get to this one....
So you try to kill him running around him from turret spot to turret spot...keeping yourself in the move as much as possible.

Shadow Warrior used full-3D turrets and vehicles....
But in Wolf3d the best way to implement it is 8-directional turret sprite (or even rotational), when you get to it and use the USE key - the scenery dissapears, along with you ability to move...only to rotate....and new temporaty HUD weapon turret sprite appear replacing your usual weapon (without ability to change it).
You rotate and shoot...and detach from it with another "use" keypress. Bringing "back" normal scenery sprite (passable) and your original HUD weapon.

[Tricob]

One last question about your "turret" feature, DJ. What do you mean by the scenery disappearing?

DoomJedi wrote:

But in Wolf3d the best way to implement it is 8-directional turret sprite (or even rotational), when you get to it and use the USE key - the scenery dissapears, along with you ability to move...only to rotate....

[doomjedi]

I only mean it in case "Turret as HUD weapon" implementaion is selected (which IMO is the best way). In this case if the scenery turret sprite won't dissapear after pressing the "use" key (as additional HUD weapon sprite image will appear) - you'll have 2 turrets..original turret scenery sprite and your new "HUD weapon" turret image. Will look weird.

You don't really have to make the original turret sprite to dissapear...as it's passable anyway....you can replace it with "empty-fully-transparent" spritenum from the VSWAP (using the "interactive tables" rutine), or with some small, low, near-your-feet sprite as it won't be visible to the player anyway as he is too close to the turret to look below his knees level.

The other, less good options is:

1. Not to use HUD weapon image, but 8-directional (or even more) turret sprite that will load appropriate angle image when you use rotate keys...but without you and your view rotating....only the turret. This will limit your turret rotational ability to 180 degrees max or even less...meaning the player's stationary viewfield. (In "my" HUD-weapon solution you get 360 degree ability rotation..as YOU are the one rotating(along with turret HUD image) and not the turret sprite changes it's represantative angle sprite).

[AlumiuN]

I had turrets working as well. I'll see if I can dig up and rework the old 16-bit code. It didn't make the turret disappear, the turret was an actor that simply went into different states and player went into an invisible entity in the exact position of the turret with a weapon type for the turret.

[doomjedi]

That's an option as well
I still like my HUD-weapon idea better though.

[Metal Overlord]

Quote:

Metal Overlord - I think 16-bit color would do the trick, actually; remember that you said it was all grey-scale, so it doesn't require an enormous amount of new colors. Perhaps I'm overlooking the obvious, but other than glass, where else would this feature prove useful?

Well, it has quite a wide use. Other than textures, such as glass as you mentioned, it would be useful for semi-transparent actor shadows (built into the sprites, of course ), for fire effects and other particles that are slightly see-through. Together with floor/ceiling decals (if possible to implement), it could be used to make some nice blood stains and similar, without having to make unique f/c textures for it.

[Tricob]

You've got a point there. Actually, the routine you describe isn't strikingly different from an Anti-aliasing algorithm I discussed in a different thread (as well as a different section ... Feature Fanatics I think).

[Tricob]

doomjedi wrote:

I only mean it in case "Turret as HUD weapon" implementaion is selected (which IMO is the best way). In this case if the scenery turret sprite won't dissapear after pressing the "use" key (as additional HUD weapon sprite image will appear) - you'll have 2 turrets..original turret scenery sprite and your new "HUD weapon" turret image. Will look weird.

Well DJ, when you and I discussed this in a forum outside of DHW, what I had in mind had the turret shown in place of the weapon animations, as well as a turret "weapon image" in the statusbar. Until you pressed the Use key again, you were looking at things from the turret's point of view. It's probably written a little like the Motorbike code, but I don't intend to use the tutorial as a reference; I already have a method laid out as to how I can program this feature.

[doomjedi]

Well...I never cared about the statusbar actually...by "HUD weapon" I meant the player weapon animation sprites.

[Tricob]

Yep, the Turret Code does take care of that.

[doomjedi]

Cool

It can be usable even in Sonder... As you know - turret we already have there...if you can kill the guard and take over the turret yourself....it can be most cool But this is a conversation not for this forum.

[Tricob]

For stationary Actors, yes - it can work. You basically have the Actor labeled as non-directional, yet have him selectable from four different spots on the Objects List. This marks the square the Actor's on, telling the code to move BJ one square North, South, East, or West when you exit the turret.

Hm ... maybe this thread should be in Feature Fanatics?

[Raziel]

I can think of a feature that will be nice... a trigger that will cause rain or snow or fog.. let's say you enter a room and in the entrance of that room (after the door) there's an invisible trigger that when you step on it will start to snow or rain outside..
can be cool no? and of course you can't trigger it again so you can make another trigger that will stop it.. you know just for the game to have a cool atmospheric mood ;P

[doomjedi]

Sounds cool
Probably a real mess coding-wise though