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wolf3d online
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TexZK
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 4:40 pm
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RakNet is under Creative Commons BY-NC... so there are no problems at all Wink
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 3:19 pm
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Ok, so, is raknet the definite choice then?

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 6:00 pm
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I would say so. It's well documented, commercial (so it'll work) and has craploads of features, so I'd say we should use RakNet. Now that we have that sorted - game design ideas, anyone?
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 7:25 am
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I totally agree with AlimiuN as far as you can read Cool

We should build the game framework in C++ before, because it will make development MUCH easier. Get rid of that crappy C for new things, and focus on OOP! It's worth!
I'll study Java and UML this university term, while at the moment I'm not deeply skilled about "true" OOP and frameworks, even less with networked game programming. I can learn, but since I haven't much free time (and you too, I bet!), it's better - for myself - to start with things I know.

To start, we should program the Server, which is what does EVERYTHING in the game computation. The player is just a client who connects to "himself" (in single player) and can be thought as an "input grabber/screen updater". The client tells the server where he should be and what he should have done (precomputation), send information to the server, the the latter checks if his messages are "relaiable", updates his state and those of peers. The client will draw each game frame on the screen trough the "Renderer" singleton. Yes, I think there must be a renderer class and each game objects has a "draw()" method called by the renderer drawing loop.

Concept flowchart:
  1. player precomputes his own actions
  2. server checks for valid player data
  3. server updates his state
  4. other players get updated
  5. client gamestate gets buffered
  6. the buffered gamestates is interpolated (prediction) for smoother rendering
  7. screen is drawn with the interpolated snapshot


Because connections aren't perfect (and anyone could cheat indeed), player speeds and actions must be clamped to a maximum value so, if the server will receive a new position too far from the last one, the movement vector will be clipped.

Obviously there's space for MANY optimisations, especially on the client side, who can interpolate data between packets to predict/smooth what's happening - then it's up to the server to tell the player what actually happened in the meanwhile. I've got a shitty ADSL connection and I'm sure there's someone still using the 56k, so optimisations will be well appreciated. I know Wolf3D isn't as fast-paced as Quakes or Unreals, but it will make the game draw smoother on your screen, and improve aiming.

As for entities in the game, there's a global "Object" interface, which holds all the needed data for general-purpose and flexible network/game object creation. RakNet offers different message types - it's up to us deciding how to handle them. In the help there are some useful tips.
"Player" is inherithed by the "Object" and will be the only class which actively reports his messages to the server. Other objects are allowed to have internal dynamic states, just like the Wolf3D "objtype" class. There are no strict static objects, just objects which don't do anything. Objects can do actions, but only on the server.

I think we should throw away everything which is about AI, because bots are VERY stupid with the current one. It's not enjoyable to fight against them, in fact "hard" singleplayer settings indtroduce more and harder bots instead of giving them more intelligence... so let's let bots be only in single player TCs, it's worth Wink

Furthermore, our great artists should redraw almost every Wolf3D character, in order to have multiple skin colors and let all the players bring each of the 4 available weapons. A better 3D angle visualization should also be better, with steps of 16 frames per turn instead of the current 8 ones.
I've thought about splitting players in two parts: torso and legs, like in the old Quake 1 and 2. This way a player can have different skins for both, and in 3D visualization legs can have a different angle than torso like in Quake 3. This is just for eyecandy, not a real need.

Obviously weapons MUST be rebalanced. It's too easy to kill someone with the vanilla Wolf3D settings. We can for example introduce heating for the chaingun (like in RTCW) and reloading for both the pistol and the rifle. Because we will be using boss skins (why not? Very Happy) we can also introduce the rocket launcher, knives, flames, and it would be nice to add power-ups such as the mecha armor, the "1up" item (with a different effect) and so on.

Keys might be useless in multiplayer, but I've got an idea. If we introduce special items (see above), we must make them difficult to reach. So, we can put a key inside the map, the player picks it up, opens the locked door and takes the item. If a player bringing the key gets killed, the key is dropped. When the key is used on the door, it disappears and thus reappear on the spawning point. Keys can also be used for "CTF" with some creativity... and we have a lot - our high quality TCs are the proof! Wink

Because maps have very small size (in bytes), I think they should be given to players by the server. This way a server can have hundred maps which can be transferred "genuinely" to players, who could don't have them on their disk. Maps will be stored on disk, so the next time the client sends the map checksum to the server, which compares it with his own, and sends back the updated map if different/unexisting. This is what is called "automatic downloading", already implemented in all multiplayer games.

When we get skilled, we can also add a "Voice" option, so players can speak to each other trough the optimum Speex encoder built-in in RakNet. People with low bandwidth can disable it and forget about. It's just a nice service, but not needed for the game.

The main problem will be cheating. I really hate cheaters, but I know someone might be cheating for his own "glory" (IMHO they're always-losers-in-life). First let the game be playable, then implement anti-cheat stuff. I'd really like to know how the "Pure Server" works on Quake 3, since its concept is good enough for an anti-cheat system...

As for licence problems, we should contact someone who knows which ones are compatible. Someone on GNU forums will certainly be full of information...


I hope to have thrown some interesting ideas... I know they're just a few, but this thread is open and anyone can express himself! Just remember that before thinking too much about the gameplay, we need tecnhical implementation ideas!!! When there is enough information we write down a "to-do" list, so that we donět loose the thread and have all the abstract in hand.[/list]
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 6:48 pm
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TexZK wrote:
I've got a shitty ADSL connection and I'm sure there's someone still using the 56k, so optimisations will be well appreciated.
Make that *two* 56K users - AlumiuN and Tricob. I'm sure I've missed several others, though. Smile
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 11:45 pm
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Here's a thought.. Why not use code from an SDL game that was written in opensource.. is already a FPS engine... ??? I was browsing the SDL site and looking at all the downloads.. and found an open source, GNU released game (and I only looked at the first part of the first page of listings - 50 of 136 is the first page and I looked only at the first 20...) called Cube...

Quote:

Cube - Landscape-style game engine that pretends to be an indoor first person shooter engine, with full sp/mp gameplay, networking, physics, in-game (coop) map editing etc etc....

LINK


And if you look for another OpenSource game that they have created with it, the same network routines are used from the Cube game... lol..

Whole lot less work and worry, because they actually still support and develop the newer game...

Just thought I'd toss some info into the fray...

Greg
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Tank Oh... and it's already Linux, MacOS, and Windows crossplatform...
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:15 am
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Good idea, BT, but unfortunately the Cube engine isn't based on Raknet, so it's unlikely that the code will be relevant. Although I suppose if the general idea is the same, we could scab some of the ideas... Smile
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:09 am
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Right.. but as I've read, you guys want to write a multiplayer game... and to do so, after reading Tek's long post, I see that you need to create both Host and Client... And the library that you have sort of chosen is Raknet... but you will have to adapt and program the host and client stuff for use with Wolf using the library (if I'm not mistaken by reading everything?????) Right??

Well... Cube has an open source Single/Multiplayer Networking Manager -> No need for a library as it is the library itself.... pre-written in C++ with both Host and Client sides of the Network routines.. So basically, you can extract the Network code itself in the ENET directory (I'm looking at the code as I type) and then throw out the game itself... and really only need to look at the game as to grab the hooks to the network (so you know where to place the calls in the WolfSDL source)... Then you can play with the packet code to have it toss the information that you need back and forth for the Wolf3dSDL game itself.. Each player using it's own original rendering, and you only need to pass info like "where are all the other players X & Y and Angle facing..", what they are doing? and the info for all the objects in the game..

But this way, you have a Net - Multi-player Host Server/Client - that is already SDL compatible... And writing the changes for what you need it to do would be very minimal really.. And it's an Open Source, Free, No Timelimitations, already pre-written, and doesn't require any other 3rd party support libraries or anything else, for that matter, to make it function....

I just thought that this would make your programming a whole lot easier... But that's just my opinion... And I thought that it might be helpfull, especially after reading Tek's post...

Greg
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 5:12 am
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Nice game, if it's possible to extract the library I think this would be the best option!
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:08 pm
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Although im studying software, and i have taken a few programming courses, i have no idea on the way these networking things are implemented. Razz So, correct me if im wrong, which most likely i am, but isnt Cube a polygon-model based engine? Would its network component work in a 2d sprite-based engine like wolf3d's? Maybe they do, but i dont know.

btw, isnt that client-server model basically the quakeworld model? So the source code would probably be similar to that of quakeworld, right? Would it help to take pointers from that?

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:09 pm
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BrotherTank wrote:
Right.. but as I've read, you guys want to write a multiplayer game... and to do so, after reading Tek's long post, I see that you need to create both Host and Client... And the library that you have sort of chosen is Raknet... but you will have to adapt and program the host and client stuff for use with Wolf using the library (if I'm not mistaken by reading everything?????) Right??

Well... Cube has an open source Single/Multiplayer Networking Manager -> No need for a library as it is the library itself.... pre-written in C++ with both Host and Client sides of the Network routines.. So basically, you can extract the Network code itself in the ENET directory (I'm looking at the code as I type) and then throw out the game itself... and really only need to look at the game as to grab the hooks to the network (so you know where to place the calls in the WolfSDL source)... Then you can play with the packet code to have it toss the information that you need back and forth for the Wolf3dSDL game itself.. Each player using it's own original rendering, and you only need to pass info like "where are all the other players X & Y and Angle facing..", what they are doing? and the info for all the objects in the game..

But this way, you have a Net - Multi-player Host Server/Client - that is already SDL compatible... And writing the changes for what you need it to do would be very minimal really.. And it's an Open Source, Free, No Timelimitations, already pre-written, and doesn't require any other 3rd party support libraries or anything else, for that matter, to make it function....

I just thought that this would make your programming a whole lot easier... But that's just my opinion... And I thought that it might be helpfull, especially after reading Tek's post...

Greg
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Greg, have you looked at Cube 2? Would that engine's netcode help too?

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:12 pm
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BrotherTank wrote:
Right.. but as I've read, you guys want to write a multiplayer game... and to do so, after reading Tek's long post, I see that you need to create both Host and Client... And the library that you have sort of chosen is Raknet... but you will have to adapt and program the host and client stuff for use with Wolf using the library (if I'm not mistaken by reading everything?????) Right??

Well... Cube has an open source Single/Multiplayer Networking Manager -> No need for a library as it is the library itself.... pre-written in C++ with both Host and Client sides of the Network routines.. So basically, you can extract the Network code itself in the ENET directory (I'm looking at the code as I type) and then throw out the game itself... and really only need to look at the game as to grab the hooks to the network (so you know where to place the calls in the WolfSDL source)... Then you can play with the packet code to have it toss the information that you need back and forth for the Wolf3dSDL game itself.. Each player using it's own original rendering, and you only need to pass info like "where are all the other players X & Y and Angle facing..", what they are doing? and the info for all the objects in the game..

But this way, you have a Net - Multi-player Host Server/Client - that is already SDL compatible... And writing the changes for what you need it to do would be very minimal really.. And it's an Open Source, Free, No Timelimitations, already pre-written, and doesn't require any other 3rd party support libraries or anything else, for that matter, to make it function....

I just thought that this would make your programming a whole lot easier... But that's just my opinion... And I thought that it might be helpfull, especially after reading Tek's post...

Greg
BrotherTank


Makes sense what Greg is saying, but I dont know if using an already existing netcode library written for a specific game would be as much work modifying it to fit wolf3d as it would be to adapt raknet from scratch to support wolf3d.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:52 pm
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From the ENet homepage:
Quote:
ENet is NOT intended to be a general purpose high level networking library that handles authentication, lobbying, server discovery, compression, encryption and other high level, often application level or dependent tasks.


I'm giving a look at the source code and I'm less enthusiast than with RakNet. The latter has some "plugins" which can make life easier, like the "Replica Manager 2", the "Ready Event", the needed "NAT punch-through", debugging tools such as "Packet Logger" and "Crash Reporter" and so on...

... thus I'd stick to RakNet. ENet isn't as complete as RakNet and I don't get the idea of using another engine, which for me WON'T make "Wolf3D Online". Just MY point of view... I'd like more making mine engine from scratch which natively supports Wolf3D than switching to another game (which Cube2 is).

I don't have much skills in this field, but I'm getting even more skilled day-by-day, and I already have some kind of idea about what to do. Just need the time to work on... but time is evil :S
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 3:32 pm
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I would certainly like to stick with RakNet, although I can see why Cube's net code would be nice. I think I'll leave most of the client\server stuff up to you, seeing as you have far more experience than me. I'll work on getting some gameplay ideas and types.

Also, one thought - cooperative missions? Should we leave the bot AI in there for that?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 4:07 pm
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As I said... It was just a thought.... I personallly don't care what you use... I just suggested it as the network code is external to the engine code... and the network code has been used for 2 different games (at a minimum)..... And it's written in C++ so you could easily read and modify it to your needs. As I said... After reading all that Tek mentioned... Server/Client, etc.. it looked like everything you were all talking about that supported SDL and was open source with GPL license... I guess I was wrong.. so I'll just shut up on the subject... This is the last time I talk about that code... I wish you guys well... And look forward to whatever you come up with... Sorry for wasting your time...

Greg
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:22 am
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That most certainly wasn't a waste of time, and we haven't really settled on RakNet yet, although it's currently the best that we've come across. Enet was obviously helpful to the Cube guys, and as you say, it's free and written in C++ (although so is RakNet). But your input is both valuable and welcomed, and we're always open to suggestions. Smile

On the gameplay side, I have some gametypes and other ideas in mind:

Player skins - have whatever skins we want (more than just different coloured BJs) and make and grey areas on the player re-colourable a-la ZDoom and the like, and allow the player to choose an RGB value. Although this might be better if we were to run it under 32-bit graphics?

Game types -
- Deathmatch, Last Man Standing, all the usual variants of that sort of thing
- Kill BJ! - sort of like Mutant in UT2004 or Juggernaut in Halo (A nod to Tricob's (IIRC) Operation: Kill BJ!)
- Ninja - Kill BJ, where BJ moves quickly, silently and stealthily and only has a knife, but gets one-hit kills from behind with it
- Capture the Flag (or something similar)
- I haven't decided on a name, it's basically playing a Wolf level, but the standard enemies are replaced by the other team in a similar fashion to Assault in UT2004.
- Takeover - See Battlefield games except all control points have to be captured for a win.
- Locksmith - Each team starts with two keys, and a team must steal the other team's keys so that they end up with all four, but the other team can steal their own ones back.

Secret areas - make pushwalls move back faster and put larger weapons or other powerups in.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:55 pm
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We really need support from those who already worked on games such as Darkplaces, because as far as I can see, we're all on the same boat. I'd really like to make an online version of the game which put me into coding, and some years ago I already tried to make "WolfenBots", which was already working (then I got some div/0 errors without beign able to debug them, damn!), but this time it's way more difficult and University is actually eating up ALL my free time (who's attending knows what I mean!). I'll try to write down some flow control and entity-relation diagrams to get a less confused idea about a flexible server-client architecture, while giving a look to existing simple games.
There must be some "Asteroids" clones to give a look to, as they're very simple games which already ideally implement what we need to begin the base network system (starting learning with simple examples is the best way, every time!). Then we have to know what RakNet offers to us, in order to write a simple yet powerful framework... thus making the first playale alpha version.


@ BT: Don't feel embarassed about sticking to RakNet, as you're always one of The Men Smile That's just the more conveninent way to make an online Wolf3D game, as Cube2 won't make us feel that Beer
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 1:30 am
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WolfenBots? *googles*

EDIT: Is there a download available for this anywhere, it looks cool (even if it is just an alpha)?
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 7:03 am
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Oh, I still own the source code on the old computer (there's also the developing version of Helvete on it), but it's not connected right now, so I have to "put it back into life" in order to download data from. You can see a few pics here: http://www.moddb.com/mods/wolfenbots. The only EXE I own isn't working and I cannot debug it to find where the division by zero was, but trust me it WAS working Smile
I just put some enemies and let them fire each other, by replacing the "player->" pointer, where required, with the pointer to the current chosen opponent, or the last attacker. Anyway, the AI is WAY TOO stupid, so I think bots will only be boring to fight against, also because you can't make them stronger...
There were multiple player respawning points, and when someone got killed, he was respawned to the furthest one, if its tile wasn't filled by someone else.
I really loved the moving sprites on the main menu Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:58 pm
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... so, is this still being worked on? Smile

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:46 am
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Yep... still waiting for the Helvette stuff.. lol.. have you heard from the Cheif?? Der?? lol... It would be great to have him back around these parts..

Greg
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:10 pm
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Wolf3D Online or WolfenBots?
As for the first, I should learn software engineering to do a nice job, and I really don't have time to Sad
As for the second, It's been canceled years ago...
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:17 pm
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I was thinking the Helvette... as you said in the other thread that you had the source and basic graphics and would package it up... and sure add the bots to the uploads in the upload area... That way, you can see just how many people grab them... lol... ??

As to the on-line.... that's something that you guys will eventually figure out and create... at least that is what many of us are hoping for... lol..

Greg
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:34 am
   Subject: Re: wolf3d online
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I have yet to download RakNet, although I think I have a Devpak for it somewhere. Now, I had an idea to implement it - create a 'mirrored' object system that has a set of objects that are a copy of the objlist, as well as the primary objlist that is either copied to or from (depending on whether the computer is a client or server) at a particular step. This might not be particularly efficient, but it saves having to rip out and recode the whole objlist structure.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 6:52 pm
   Subject: wolf3d online
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Hey, so, this is sort of good news for the wolf3d multiplayer efforts here, kinda to give it some sort of boost. I emailed the guy that john carmack mentions in his development blog. He told me about new features in his now back in working status port:

Quote:
> Oh yeah, sorry, I forgot to ask you, are you going to keep working and updating your wolf3d source port?
Yes. Internet Multiplayer is where this project is headed.


So, manybe efforts can be combined, to get this finally working! Smile

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:56 am
   Subject: Re: wolf3d online
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Sluuuuurp!!!
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