DieHard Wolfers

[Tricob]

Executor wrote:

I've never had to do anything to "get it running"; you install it and it goes. Don't blame him for the fact that ChaosEdit corrupted your VGAGRAPH. In Doom modding there is no reason to do anything to doom2.wad and in ECWolf modding there is no reason to do anything to .wl6 files.

Uh, when in my post did I mention VGAGRAPHs? My beef is the installation process. With a Wolf4SDL mod, all you do is extract the files and then run the EXE. With ECWolf, it's far more complicated, and not very user-friendly.

[Ubermutant]

Tricob wrote:

My beef is the installation process. With a Wolf4SDL mod, all you do is extract the files and then run the EXE. With ECWolf, it's far more complicated, and not very user-friendly.

Well, the installation process only needs to be done once, right? Once you do it you dont need to do it again.

Or, (dont think I'm questioning your intelligence by asking this), Did you perhaps extract the files from the pk3 file? You dont need to do that, all thats required is you drag the pk3 file onto the ECWolf exe and it plays.

[Executor]

And it's not complicated at all. You unzip ECWolf to a directory, you copy the various stock game data files (.wl6, .wl1, .sod, .sdm) that you want to the directory, and then run, it even gives you a simple option menu to pick which game to run. For a mod, you unzip the pk3 or wad to the directory and either drag and drop the file on top of the executable or run "ecwolf [filename]". You're just spreading FUD with no actual truth behind it.

[Soldat 555]

Executor wrote:

For a mod, you unzip the pk3 or wad to the directory and either drag and drop the file on top of the executable or run "ecwolf [filename]".

Sounds like ZDoom, I've had various issues with getting mods to work that port as mods won't appear in the game/wad list and when I drag the wad over the exe it only runs Doom.wad.

Comparing that to SDL where you just unzip the zip/rar to whatever directory/folder you want DOES make ECWolf sound a bit more complicated. That's one of the many reasons I do prefer Wolf mods over Doom mods, unless you know how to install the mod properly it won't play... Or it will but with errors.

I'm not knocking ECWolf or it's capabilities, I merely see how that can be too much to do for some people like me where we prefer unzip the files, edit the files we know to edit, and run the exe.

[Blzut3]

If the drag and drop is confusing then use the command line as Executor stated. You still have to tell ECWolf/ZDoom what base game to load, which is why the "iwad" dialog still appears. If you look at the terminal it should tell you if you successfully loaded a mod since it will say "adding <filename>, <X> lumps". If there was a typo or something it will print an error saying it could not be opened.

[Executor]

Soldat 555 wrote:

Executor wrote:

For a mod, you unzip the pk3 or wad to the directory and either drag and drop the file on top of the executable or run "ecwolf [filename]".

Sounds like ZDoom, I've had various issues with getting mods to work that port as mods won't appear in the game/wad list and when I drag the wad over the exe it only runs Doom.wad.

Comparing that to SDL where you just unzip the zip/rar to whatever directory/folder you want DOES make ECWolf sound a bit more complicated. That's one of the many reasons I do prefer Wolf mods over Doom mods, unless you know how to install the mod properly it won't play... Or it will but with errors.

I'm not knocking ECWolf or it's capabilities, I merely see how that can be too much to do for some people like me where we prefer unzip the files, edit the files we know to edit, and run the exe.

You're making up a challenge that doesn't exist. Installing Doom mods is really easy (unless they're old vanilla wads from 1995 that use DeusF anyway, but nobody makes those anymore). Besides, if you have 200 mods (for comparison, I have 224 wads and 92 pk3s in my ZDoom folder) in your ECWolf folder, how is ECWolf supposed to know which one you want to run without you telling it?

[Tricob]

Executor wrote:

You're making up a challenge that doesn't exist. Installing Doom mods is really easy (unless they're old vanilla wads from 1995 that use DeusF anyway, but nobody makes those anymore). Besides, if you have 200 mods (for comparison, I have 224 wads and 92 pk3s in my ZDoom folder) in your ECWolf folder, how is ECWolf supposed to know which one you want to run without you telling it?

Installing Doom mods is easy *if* you know what you're doing, yes. But many people don't, and IMO, it's much more heavy-handed than it needs to be.

As to how ECWolf will know which mod to use, how about the mod located where you're running the EXE? Like in Wolf4SDL? To me, this makes perfect sense. I'm confused as to why you're against devising the EXE this way.

[gerolf]

TCs - What's left? You decide in 3...2..1.

I think the ability to destroy walls, doors, objects, etc. should be a feature in a future TC.

Or perphaps enemies that have AI that isn't just "stand, run, walk, patrol, shoot, get hit, die"
Like... their guns jamming, shooting themselves, taunting, etc. There's never been enough interactivity of those sorts with Wolfenstein.

[Soldat 555]

Executor wrote:

You're making up a challenge that doesn't exist. Installing Doom mods is really easy (unless they're old vanilla wads from 1995 that use DeusF anyway, but nobody makes those anymore). Besides, if you have 200 mods (for comparison, I have 224 wads and 92 pk3s in my ZDoom folder) in your ECWolf folder, how is ECWolf supposed to know which one you want to run without you telling it?

Can't say about ECWolf but I tried getting both QuakeDoom mods to work and only succeeded on PSP. I tried Command Prompt, I tried Run from the Start menu, neither appear in the "select an IWAD to use" menu, I tried drag onto the exe file and if it doesn't crash on me, it just runs Doom II. You obviously didn't understand what I mean by simple so I'm gonna break it down...

WOLF4SDL
Step 1: Unzip into new folder
Step 2: Double click the exe/application file
Step 3: Navigate menu, play game

This is a method pretty much everyone who uses Windows and downloads games know, "Unzip, run application/executable file".

ECWOLF (At least how you guys described the steps)
Step 1: Install ECWolf
Step 2: Unzip ECWolf wad/wad like file
Step 3: Either A: drag wad file onto ECWolf exe file, B: Use Run from start menu and type C:\WhereverECWolfIsInstalled\ECwolf.exe "Mod.wad" or C: Use Command Prompt, type cd\WhereverECWolfIsInstalled\ ENTER ecwolf.exe "mod.wad" ENTER
Step 4: Navigate menu, play game

This method, which only has one more step CAN be confusing if people don't read a step by step in a ReadMe file or asks for help online. I only know Command Prompt and Run solely because I grew up typing everything out in Dos.

Why you're so defensive towards Tricob and I, I don't know or understand. We simply stated "We've had/seen trouble with ECWolf/ZDoom. It's easier to use SDL in our opinions." And just like him, I'm a bit confused why you brought up ChaosEdit messing up ECWolf VGAGraph files but if it does that makes me prefer SDL even more as I prefer using ChaosEdit way more than WDC (Which I only use to identify music).

[Executor]

Because he complained about ECWolf not working during the initial release and it was because he used altered VGAGRAPH files that ChaosEdit had corrupted and written garbage to.

[Soldat 555]

Only mention I found by him on ECWolf in this topic:

Tricob wrote:

Ubermutant wrote:

Or, we could kick it up a notch and use ECWolf, if we wanted to

Personally, I found ECWolf to be too high-maintenence for simple mod releases. For development purposes, it does a lot, but next to simple Wolf4SDL releases, you have to do far too much just to get it running.

So he complained in another topic and he didn't know ChaosEdit was the culprit. Whoopity-Doo! This only further suggests ECWolf's more complex than Wolf4SDL as it's not as compatible with editors. He prefers Wolf4SDL, you prefer ECWolf, you shouldn't get pissy and defensive that he doesn't like the same toys you like. It's that simple.

[Blzut3]

Tricob wrote:

As to how ECWolf will know which mod to use, how about the mod located where you're running the EXE? Like in Wolf4SDL? To me, this makes perfect sense. I'm confused as to why you're against devising the EXE this way.

The name of that file is? Remember that ECWolf mods are a single file with a descriptive name instead of multiple files following a set naming convention (and by necessity do not include an exe). Furthermore, instead of being forced to be TCs, they can build upon resources in the original data (legally). Unlike Wolf4SDL forks, ECWolf interprets mods at run time so you need to tell it what you want to play. Hopefully some GUI launchers will come out in the future to assist with this though.

I wonder if shipping mods with batch files would help?

Soldat 555 wrote:

neither appear in the "select an IWAD to use" menu, I tried drag onto the exe file and if it doesn't crash on me, it just runs Doom II.

I'm kind of confused here actually. When you drag and drop, then select Doom 2 in the IWAD menu (An IWAD is the base game data which is loaded before the mod itself since the mod build upon it) you say you have trouble getting the mod to load? (Same goes for ECWolf only with Wolf3D instead of Doom 2.) In the command line you can use -iwad doom2.wad (or in ECWolf's case --data wl6) to skip this step if you really want to. If this isn't working then it's probably a read error which the respective engines should print something like "Can not stat <filename>" in the console.

Soldat 555 wrote:

So he complained in another topic and he didn't know ChaosEdit was the culprit. Whoopity-Doo! This only further suggests ECWolf's more complex than Wolf4SDL as it's not as compatible with editors. He prefers Wolf4SDL, you prefer ECWolf, you shouldn't get pissy and defensive that he doesn't like the same toys you like. It's that simple.

ECWolf is compatible with editors, although ChaosEdit has a tendency to produce incorrect data. ECWolf is a generic engine and relies on working header information in order to find data within the file, the Wolf3D source does not. You are, however, strongly recommended not to use the Wolf3D wl6 file formats with ECWolf as they are too limited to use the engine to it's full potential. For everything but maps, Slade 3 is an adequate tool which I do believe is quite easy to use. Obviously if you're not familiar with Doom editing there may be a slight learning curve here. (As a side note, ECWolf 1.1 will be a little more tolerant of invalid data, but it is ultimately only able to make guesses when correcting errors.)

Please excuse Executor's over reactions. He hasn't really done major project releases like this one before. It is important for us to do whatever we can to persuade people to start using ECWolf, and it is easy to over react to negative comments. Especially ones which seem to stem from user error (use of tampered data files). I understand that major shifts like these take time, so while I encourage you to start working with ECWolf as soon as possible, if it lacks a feature you need then so be it. I would appreciate it if these features are brought to my attention through the issue tracker though.

[Executor]

ECWolf can't "run the mod located where you're running the exe", because a potentially infinite number of mods may be located there. As Blzut3 said, each mod is one file, so you can have tons and tons of mods in one folder. Instead of having an installation for each mod, you have one installation and all your ECWolf mods go in the same place. When you're using self-contained file formats like .wad and .pk3, having one installation per mod is a gigantic waste.

[BrotherTank]

Hey Guys...

[Moderator Hat Sortof On]

Lets drop the ECwolf crap and move it to it's original or own thread.

[Moderator Hat Off]

This subject is about the future of Wolf3d and the games/TC's that it spawns. So lets take this thread back to where it belongs... What's left - What can you do - What would you like to do - Where to take = Wolf3d/SOD Mods and TC's????

Greg
BrotherTank

[Ubermutant]

Thanks BT

What if the Nazis from the future invaded the past, there'd be a medieval type setting but with cleverly disguised futuristic type stuff in it.

[doomjedi]

Interesting idea.

Thought to do this for ancient egypt theme/setting in the past - Nazis wanting to get the Spear from Egyptians pharaohs....

[Thomas]

That sounds like a swell idea! However, I'm afraid it's going to take a lot of balls to make such a game and make it solid. Team Raycast, land ho!

[Tricob]

Ubermutant wrote:

What if the Nazis from the future invaded the past, there'd be a medieval type setting but with cleverly disguised futuristic type stuff in it.

Hm ... I suspect it'd share too many similarities to Blake Stone, and be unfairly compared to it, even if the similarities are unintentional.

A modification of your idea could probably work, though ... similar to a mod idea I came up with years ago. Suppose there was a group of Nazis who disagreed with Hitler's methods, and developed their own society hidden underground. Being unbound by German law, their technology was allowed to reach heights never seen in Germany before. This was my building block for the mod "Operation: Kill BJ!", but it sort of transformed itself into "Wolfenstein 3-D: The Deluxe Edition", a.k.a. WolfDX. I suppose it still has a chance to make its way into the full version of WolfDX. Gotta get back to programming again in SDL some more.

[Thomas]

I also think it's about time that we get a communist-themed mod. Take it this way: Patton and Eisenhower start seeing eye to eye, somehow the reports on war crimes, atrocities etc. done by the communists are revealed, and it results in full-scale war between GB/US and the USSR.

[gerolf]

gerolf wrote:

I think the ability to destroy walls, doors, objects, etc. should be a feature in a future TC.

Or perhaps enemies that have AI that isn't just "stand, run, walk, patrol, shoot, get hit, die"
Like... their guns jamming, shooting themselves, taunting, etc. There's never been enough interactivity of those sorts with Wolfenstein.

Reposting since it was washed away...

Oh, the Communist idea.. Sounds good, maybe a Cold War themed one, with all the top secret operations that went on, I'm sure someone could make something up It's just, the past few times I've seen someone make a game with Wolf where you fight Russians, they usually just make them wear red uniforms

Also about the Nazis time traveling... It depends on where they time travel that determines how good it is. I think it'd be a pretty cool idea if they time traveled to the American Civil War and aided the Confederates, and you must travel back in time, or history will forever be changed. Go back to the French Revolution thing against GB (didn't study this one very much), and have it where they are aiding France, but then will conquer them once it's over.. And then something about Russia's past. So they're trying to weaken the allies.

[doomjedi]

Thomas wrote:

That sounds like a swell idea! However, I'm afraid it's going to take a lot of balls to make such a game and make it solid. Team Raycast, land ho!

We currently have our hands full for quite some time...even more projects than you're aware of...in different stages of development. Coding-wise LinuxWolf is fully focusing currently on "Batman - No Man's Land"...mapping-wise we have some other focuses

I've started preparing art for such project in the past, if someone is serious - can share. Some scenery and textures, parallaxed sky, a sand-scorpion enemy, tons of ripped art from "PowerSlave" (including some recoloring and editing)...if someone is serious and capable - can always PM me
Egypt theme is inspiring and undermodded. With such great art we have from "PowerSlave" - it's just a shame

[doomjedi]

Yes, it's about time for some serious Russian-themed mod.
If people need translations to russian for signs and such - just PM me
Can even recored sounds (though non-proffecionally, from comp's mike)

I've released some related art in the past BTW.

[Soldat 555]

Ha! Do you guys know what would be an interesting Wolf3d mod? Pinball! lol

Think about it, arrow keys control flippers, POV could be from the ball and would automatically turn when jumping/falling. Bumpers and stuff could be Wolf3d based like knocking down Nazi flags, hitting Guards and officers, after say 1,000,000 points a boss could rise from the table and you have to hit them like 50 times to get more points or move onto the next table.

I think it'd be a trippy idea.

[doomjedi]

I don't like ideas that move 2D to 3D without adding any of 3D-advantages to it...why to do it then? Same to 3D PacMan, Sokoban, BomberMan...and other games based heavily on top/over-view perspective.

[linuxwolf]

Someone should make a 2D Wolf3D themed pinball game then. It could be a lot of fun to play on a handheld phone or tablet.

[Soldat 555]

doomjedi wrote:

I don't like ideas that move 2D to 3D without adding any of 3D-advantages to it...why to do it then? Same to 3D PacMan, Sokoban, BomberMan...and other games based heavily on top/over-view perspective.

Actually I'd think Pac Man 3D could be awesome. Each level could get progressively more challenging.

[Tricob]

Soldat 555 wrote:

doomjedi wrote:

I don't like ideas that move 2D to 3D without adding any of 3D-advantages to it...why to do it then? Same to 3D PacMan, Sokoban, BomberMan...and other games based heavily on top/over-view perspective.

Actually I'd think Pac Man 3D could be awesome. Each level could get progressively more challenging.

I admit I've taken a partial shot at this. I even put together the first maze for the game. But the trick is getting the left/right exit to work and display properly. I might just chicken out in the end and have the "edges" of it artificially fade into black.

[Soldat 555]

Another idea I thought would be cool is a middle-eastern themed mod. I know RonWolf's been working on some cool Arfika Corps themed levels but I mean more like Lawrence Of Arabia or 6 Day War kinda mod.

[Ubermutant]

How about a TC based on Michael Jackson's Moonwalker (either the sega game or the movie)

[Tricob]

Thanks for the feedback! It's been a long time since I'd seen the movie, but the last time I did, I really enjoyed it. As for the game, I much prefer the arcade version myself; the Sega version just had too many things cut out of it, and it just didn't play as well for me. It could be more personal taste than anything else; I grew up playing more arcade games than I did console games (or computer games, for that matter), and I have a real soft spot for releases with an arcade "feel" to them.