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Something I've noticed
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gerolf
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 7:56 pm
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When an add-on, mod, tc is released, if it is too challenging or the levels are just very difficult and mazey, I a lot of people say "A game is meant to be FUN"

But is that always the case with a map? I don't think so.

Every game like Wolfenstein, Doom, Duke Nukem, etc have levels that you just absolutely dread to play. Not because they are poorly designed, but because either it is a very large level that gets you lost, or it is insanely difficult (sometimes both of these things, combined). I don't see a problem with this. I think that adds a little bit of realism in these games, to have levels that are very difficult and with paths that can lead to nowhere to make it less linear.


What do you all think about these kind of levels?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 5:40 pm
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I like those kinds of levels. Today's games are far too dumbed down.

I find those kinds of levels FUN to play. Smile

Sometimes even levels that are supposed to be impossible to play normally are.

One example is E3 L2 of Temporary Insanity. That level is supposed to only be possible to beat by never killing any enemies. But it is possible to kill all the enemies and beat the level normally. I actually think that is easier than the intended way.

Another example is mission 8, "No Win Situation", of the Crayven campaign in Ground Control. With that mission, you are attacked by an overwhelming number of enemy units and are supposed to have to retreat to a pickup location. But it is possible to destroy all of the enemy units if you team up effectively with the friendly AI units (I think the game's designers overlooked that aspect). Even if you do so, the mission won't end unless you move your units to the pickup location and they are picked up.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2016 1:28 pm
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I am in favour of such levels, but they have to remind rare and well placed. I confess than sometimes restarting like 40 times a portion of a game because you can not save or whatever, drives me crazy.
If it is a game you are ready to dedicate a lot of time, it can be okay, but if it is something you play for fun and enjoy the story etc, and you are blocked at level 1 anyway, then it is not worth (you don't enjoy the game anyway because you abandon so it is a waste).

I still agree that most of the nowadays games suck with big arrows showing what to do and obvious "tips" displayed on loading screens.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2016 2:11 pm
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gerolf wrote:
When an add-on, mod, tc is released, if it is too challenging or the levels are just very difficult and mazey, I a lot of people say "A game is meant to be FUN"

But is that always the case with a map? I don't think so.

Every game like Wolfenstein, Doom, Duke Nukem, etc have levels that you just absolutely dread to play. Not because they are poorly designed, but because either it is a very large level that gets you lost, or it is insanely difficult (sometimes both of these things, combined). I don't see a problem with this. I think that adds a little bit of realism in these games, to have levels that are very difficult and with paths that can lead to nowhere to make it less linear.


What do you all think about these kind of levels?


I think once you've been behind the scenes, the magic and excitement you found in the difficulty of playing these levels, the enchantment and true passion and idealism for the mod or game you were playing gets kind of lost. You KNOW it's possible to put e.g. a secret door here, not make those guards march around there, you know a lot of stuff don't have to be as difficult. If you've made lots of levels or released a lot of projects you know that a lot of the stuff you find difficult doesn't have to be like that. Personally I don't get it. Getting stuck in certain mods only increases the hunger. I experienced that as late as Eisenfaust Legacy. It was difficult as hell at times but I really wanted to move on. Never mind the difficulty... There's a reason it's out there, it's 2016 and beta testing and editors and everything has been made possible, you really have to be sloppy if you put out something that thoroughly 100 % cannot be completed. You reach a point where the fault is in the hands of the player.
Barry
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 3:34 pm
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Matthew wrote:
I like those kinds of levels. Today's games are far too dumbed down.

I find those kinds of levels FUN to play. Smile



I feel the same way. One thing I hate about modern first person shooters is the level design is completely linear and you don't get that exploration and hunting for keys aspect you did in Wolfenstein, the original Doom, etc. While the new Doom 2016 made great effort towards bringing back what made classic shooters fun, the maps are still very linear. It's like level designers today don't know how to do anything different. With my own maps, I enjoy making the player explore the level and get lost in order to find the keys they need to complete it. I want them to be banging their heads against the wall trying to find some room or nook or cranny they overlooked. However, I don't like endless pushwall mazes or boss appearances unless its done perfectly like it was with Temporary Insanity.

The mention of Temporary Insanity brings back a lot of memories. It was the first add-on I played for Wolf3D and it was one of the few to make it extremely difficult with a ton of pushwall mazes and boss appearances yet still maintain that addictive Wolfenstein feel. It was the inspiration for my own Wolf3d_60, which was by any assessment, total crap, because it didn't strike that balance between difficulty and design quality like Temporary Insanity did.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 12:31 am
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One of the difficulties with having non-linear levels in modern shooters is that it's difficult to have scripted events make sense in a non-linear fashion, and without scripted events it's difficult to truly interweave the story with the gameplay. The foundry level in Doom 2016 is a good example of a well-made compromise between the two, but in general it requires a lot more work to make levels that are both properly explorable and reasonably dynamic.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 9:48 am
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AlumiuN wrote:
One of the difficulties with having non-linear levels in modern shooters is that it's difficult to have scripted events make sense in a non-linear fashion, and without scripted events it's difficult to truly interweave the story with the gameplay. The foundry level in Doom 2016 is a good example of a well-made compromise between the two, but in general it requires a lot more work to make levels that are both properly explorable and reasonably dynamic.


I wouldn't say its difficult, but it does require more effort to be put into the mapping. A map can be non-linear but still require the player explore the different areas in a certain order, like Wolfenstein and Doom do with locked doors.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 3:41 pm
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vaultkeeper wrote:
AlumiuN wrote:
One of the difficulties with having non-linear levels in modern shooters is that it's difficult to have scripted events make sense in a non-linear fashion, and without scripted events it's difficult to truly interweave the story with the gameplay. The foundry level in Doom 2016 is a good example of a well-made compromise between the two, but in general it requires a lot more work to make levels that are both properly explorable and reasonably dynamic.


I wouldn't say its difficult, but it does require more effort to be put into the mapping. A map can be non-linear but still require the player explore the different areas in a certain order, like Wolfenstein and Doom do with locked doors.


Well, it's difficult when you have a publisher to answer to who has given you what they expect to be a suitable budget and deadline but puts a lot of pressure on you to get it finished quickly. But that's another can of worms. Razz
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 4:22 pm
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AlumiuN wrote:


Well, it's difficult when you have a publisher to answer to who has given you what they expect to be a suitable budget and deadline but puts a lot of pressure on you to get it finished quickly. But that's another can of worms. Razz


True. I think mapping takes a back seat in modern games to showcasing graphics, storytelling via cutscenes, and online multiplayer. When you are on a tight timeline, you have to place priority on the aspects that will sell the game and unfortunately, creative mapping isn't high on that list. Plus, a lot of the target audience for modern games expects linear level design. I was talking about this on another forum and they were criticizing the original Wolfenstein and Doom levels as being poor design because they weren't linear. They think if you can get lost in the map, its poor design. I guess its a generational difference.

I have really been impressed with id recently though. Wolfenstein: The Old Blood was outstanding. It truly felt like it was designed for fans of the classic game. Doom 2016 was also great and has received nearly unanimous praise.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 8:04 pm
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vaultkeeper wrote:
AlumiuN wrote:


Well, it's difficult when you have a publisher to answer to who has given you what they expect to be a suitable budget and deadline but puts a lot of pressure on you to get it finished quickly. But that's another can of worms. Razz


True. I think mapping takes a back seat in modern games to showcasing graphics, storytelling via cutscenes, and online multiplayer. When you are on a tight timeline, you have to place priority on the aspects that will sell the game and unfortunately, creative mapping isn't high on that list. Plus, a lot of the target audience for modern games expects linear level design. I was talking about this on another forum and they were criticizing the original Wolfenstein and Doom levels as being poor design because they weren't linear. They think if you can get lost in the map, its poor design. I guess its a generational difference.


I don't really mind linearity in a game as long as it has a reason for it to be that way. When I get around to making a proper commercial game, it'll probably be a little non-linear at least (in terms of map design, anyway; the storyline I have planned is extremely non-linear).

vaultkeeper wrote:
I have really been impressed with id recently though. Wolfenstein: The Old Blood was outstanding. It truly felt like it was designed for fans of the classic game. Doom 2016 was also great and has received nearly unanimous praise.


Well, the new Wolfenstein games are actually made by Machinegames (who also helped out on Doom). I agree, though; if this is how people are going to remake classic Id games, bring on the Quake remake. Very Happy
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