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Lost episodes
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 8:20 am
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I seriously doubt your blue clay theory Majik (no offense). You can tell that most of the enemies were made with a simple paint program. It's just that with the bosses, they spent all this time making one good frame and they ended up just editing it so that it would look like it moved. Look at the Devil Incarnate. You can see that they just cut the parts and moved them around. If you look closely at his face you'll notice there is one part where they copy and pasted his face and then lowered it slightly because you can see parts of the old face behind it.

If they did make the models in clay they'd look a HELL of a lot better then that. I know, I've done something similar. They'd look like resized doom sprites. Doom used models to make its sprites anyway. ID has admitted to that. I think however that Id used a voxel engine to make 3d models of the wolf 3d enemies and then just edited their faces and such to avoid pixelation issues. The reason is that if you look at a voxel you will notice a similarity in its build up to the way wolf sprites are. Plus they can actually make the voxels so they fill up a 64 by 64 space using only a certain palette. Then a little light and shadow engine and you've got a nice sprite that you can rotate for all angles. However it is just a theory.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 10:53 am
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That idea may be nice if any publicly available PC in 1992/3 was fast enough to run a *good* voxel engine. You may prove me wrong on that one, but i dont exactaly see it rendering 3d cubes with good light calculations on a 33 mhz processor. Its a nice theory, could be true, but i hadn't seen them used anytime before Ken Silverman implemented them in Build.

My opinion -

Blue Clay = No

Voxels = No

Hand Pixelled = Yes

I don't believe that they would have spend a crapload of cash on film and scanners and whatnot, just to make an Expansion, more like they got some pixel artists, gave them coffee and trapped them in a room, with the order to make some enemies.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 11:25 am
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JoeWolf wrote:
That idea may be nice if any publicly available PC in 1992/3 was fast enough to run a *good* voxel engine. You may prove me wrong on that one, but i dont exactaly see it rendering 3d cubes with good light calculations on a 33 mhz processor. Its a nice theory, could be true, but i hadn't seen them used anytime before Ken Silverman implemented them in Build.

My opinion -

Blue Clay = No

Voxels = No

Hand Pixelled = Yes

I don't believe that they would have spend a crapload of cash on film and scanners and whatnot, just to make an Expansion, more like they got some pixel artists, gave them coffee and trapped them in a room, with the order to make some enemies.


That's a nice idea, but I'm still not convinced. The coloration just doesn't make any sense for the bosses to be hand drawn (I can believe it with most of the standard enemies, though). If you look at like a 4x4 pixel section of say Schabbs or Submarine Willie, you'll notice that frequently, there are up to four different shades of blue or white or whatever color is being used that are so close to one another that there's no point in using all four of them. If someone gave me the task of hand drawing a character, you can bet your keister I wouldn't be using 13 different shades of the same color, often ways that are not noticeable or don't look good. Take a close look the the sprites sometime and see if what I'm saying isn't true...it doesn't make sense from an artist's perspective...

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 11:38 am
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Hmm, 4 pixels of the same colour?

It seems you've convinced me Majik old bean.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 6:07 am
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Let me first explain that a voxel is not a 3d cube per se' but just a flat cube that's next another flat always facing you cube that's next another flat cube, etc. etc. Also need I remind you they had 3d engines back in the day, but they wouldn't be able to run in real time. They usually took like several minutes to render 1 frame at a time, so it was possible. Check out castlemaster http://www.the-underdogs.org/game.php?id=180

Now what's the date on that? Oh yeah ..... 1988! This game was full 3d, but ran fairly slow.

Also Need I remind you that the move Startrek 2: Wrath of Kahn used CGI imagery an it was made in what?.... 1982

So apparently ID had the capability of making prerendered models in 1992, didn't they? Mr Green

Oh, and Majik, if they did use clay or some other model, which I guess is possible, they'd still have to do some major editing to make it look as crisp as it does in Wolf 3d and the Lost EP. It's always possible that they used an auto shading program like PSP has.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 4:36 pm
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Nova Logic's Comanche series has been using voxel engines since the mid ninetees. Ken's system, like Ringman mentioned, has an option of flat 2-d pixels, instead of 3d cubes. It's just a viewing option for his editors, but the engine itself is rendered using the 2d 'floating' pixels. The seamlessness of the original enemies' rotating frames makes me think that a voxel engine could have ben used. I think it was hand shaded, because knowing from experience, it is fairly easy (with practice) to 'realistically' shade a low rez object. I'm sure Adrian and Kevin didn't need that much help. Look at their demonic textures in quake III. Those giant wall murials. The shading and color blending of those is absolutely superb. Now rewind to the SOD lost episodes. Hand drawn and rushed. I think the bosses were hand drawn too. The artists cut corners by cutting and pasting. It shows. I can't come up with a hypothesis on their use of cetain colors though. Maybe if you turn your monitor's brightness level up, there may be a small difference.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:34 pm
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Majik Monkee wrote:
That's a nice idea, but I'm still not convinced. The coloration just doesn't make any sense for the bosses to be hand drawn (I can believe it with most of the standard enemies, though). If you look at like a 4x4 pixel section of say Schabbs or Submarine Willie, you'll notice that frequently, there are up to four different shades of blue or white or whatever color is being used that are so close to one another that there's no point in using all four of them. If someone gave me the task of hand drawing a character, you can bet your keister I wouldn't be using 13 different shades of the same color, often ways that are not noticeable or don't look good. Take a close look the the sprites sometime and see if what I'm saying isn't true...it doesn't make sense from an artist's perspective...


I'd think it makes a lot more sense that they were just horrible graphic designers. They had to actually deal with the multiple images anyways, so there's no reason to assume many things wern't hand drawn. That would be just plain silly.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 5:02 am
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That doesn't explain to me why Schabbs uses five shades of white repeatedly that are indistinguishable from one another in very small areas...and sorry, but all the technical speak lost me (I'm not up on my engines and stuff like that, I only know what can be done in MSpain). Why can't someone just email them and ask them? John Romero has his own site, right? Wouldn't he know how they were done? Wink

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 5:09 am
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Romero would know, but whether he would tell is another thing entirely. I agree with you Majik that they used an auto light source. Believe it or not people, but ID has been lazy on several occaisons. Doom's enemies were almost all made with real poseable models that were digitized.(They have admitted to this.) Heck they even used digitized models for some of the walls, so its not entirely impossible for them to have used models or some other program for Wolf. Since we're mentioning schabbs, need I remind you of other sprites where there are out of place pixels that suddenly change when the characters are shooting or adjusting a pose. These are glaring when you look in floedit, but ID didn't change these. SO if it was hand drawn, why would ID have put them there in the first place? Confused

Also, and this has been proven as I have seen the preproduction shots, but Duke 3d used cgi models for all its sprites.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 7:27 am
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I'm going to email John Romero and ask him about it. It can't hurt anything to give it a try. Maybe we'll learn something...or maybe he'll just ignore the email...we'll see... Smile

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 9:48 am
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Ringman wrote:
Joe you asshat you are wrong K?


Yes, i agree.

Note to self : Before posting, do research!

Still, even the Voxels dont really explain the 4+ colour mystery, unless it was down to resizing the image. Why would they be spending the time making a Voxel Engine and an Editor and Sorting out the images, when they could just heavily edit the original ones.

I still think it was hand pixelled though, and the colours were a half assed attempt at Anti-Aliasing. Maybe a custom "Brush" that automatically did it?

Joe

*Waits for barrage of disproving comments*

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 10:13 am
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I think the only thing I like in the LE is in the last one where hell is all technological.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 10:26 am
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I emailed John Romero...I'm not betting any money that he replies to me, but wouldn't that kick butt if he could finally solve this mystery for us? It's not like it's a highly valuable technological secret they need to keep or anything...

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 9:17 pm
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JoeWolf wrote:
Ringman wrote:
Joe you asshat you are wrong K?


Yeah, I sooo remember typing that. Razz

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 4:42 am
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Ringman wrote:

Quote:
Romero is never going to write you back, Majik. Quit being a butthead, and leave the guy alone!


That's what you think...I got a reply from him last night. I don't know if this will convince anyone or not, but this is what John Romero says on the matter...

John Romero wrote

Quote:
Matt,

You are correct - all the Wolf3D sprites were done by hand only. We didn't start using a video camera or scanning until we started on DOOM. Smile

- John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Smith" <dhw_majik_monkee@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 09:40:57 -0500
To: <john@rome.ro>
Subject: Planet //ROME.RO

> Greetings! Wow! I can't believe I'm sending this email...I'm an enormous Wolfenstein 3D fan, and have been since it first came out. I've spent years examining and modifying character sprites from the game (I've even got a web site devoted to user made enemy sprites), and I really admire the work the team did with the graphics.
>
> I'll keep this short and sweet. There's been a debate going on in the Wolfenstein community for quite some time now about how the boss sprites were done. They range from the logical to the totally insane, and as much fun as it is doing this endless speculation, I was wondering if you'd be interested in clearing up this question for us (everyone says you won't tell me, but I'm going out on a limb anyway). The question is this: Were the bosses for Wolfenstein 3D hand drawn or made with either models or some kind of model rendering program? I always accepted that they were done by hand until I was examining some of them and noticed that there are up to four or five shades of virtually the same color used in close proximity on some characters, and it wouldn't make sense for an artist to use that many when you can't tell the difference anyway. Can you shed some light on this?
>
> Either way, thanks for reading this email...I'm still a huge fan of good old Wolf3D, and probably always will be. Best of luck with all your future projects! Love your site, by the way!
>
>
>
> Matt "Smith"


I guess I'm going to have to let it rest...though he doesn't say what tools were used for drawing them by hand...there will always be a hint of doubt in my mind... Confused

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 5:01 am
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Majik Monkee wrote:
Ringman wrote:

Quote:
Romero is never going to write you back, Majik. Quit being a butthead, and leave the guy alone!


This is great how everyone quotes me to the EXACT word! Am I drunk when I type on these forums or what? Laughing

Anyway its good to know the mystery has been solved, kinda. I guess they really are great artists. Yeesh, though I feel bad for the artists to have had to spent most likely tons of HOURS just trying to shade every individual pixel so that it looked real. That and I know what its like to have to imagine your character from all angles. Hey they were getting paid for it though.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 11:26 am
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Majik Monkee wrote:
I guess I'm going to have to let it rest...though he doesn't say what tools were used for drawing them by hand...there will always be a hint of doubt in my mind... Confused


I remember reading that Adrian was using the old Deluxe Paint II up till development of quake 3. The same 256 color program from Wolf to Quake 2. I used to have it, the best editor I've ever used. Similar to the first couple Paintshop pro versions, but in my opinion better. I'm using Grafx II, which is a near perfect DPII clone. I recommend it for anyone who wants to creat textures and characters.

@ Majik, It just shows that not only is Adrian and Kevin extremely talented (obviously) but the John Romero is a cool guy! Cool Maybe you should send him O:L, see what he thinks! That would be great to have feedback from the master!
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 12:11 pm
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Yes...he does definitely seem to be cool...not sure my work can stand up to his, though...I probably won't send him any of my stuff any time soon. I do appreciate him not only reading the email, but actually responding within a day...I would have bet money I'd never hear from him... Cool

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 2:45 pm
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John Romero wrote:
All the Wolf3D sprites were done by hand only. We didn't start using a video camera or scanning until we started on DOOM.

I haven't checked out this Lost Episodes thread too much, but I remember reading from various sources in the past that ID didn't start using clay models until Doom as well. Here's a quote from my "The Official Doom Survivor's Strategies and Secrets" book that you might find interesting (the book is pretty huge, around 310 8x10 pages).

"The characters in Doom were created using a vareity of methods - hand drawn, scanned clay models, and finally, latex and metal models. After working on Wolfenstein, we knew the frustration of creating the rotated views of every animation of a creature. Most characters are easy to draw from the front, but rotate them 45 degrees and things become a little more complex. Using small wooden mannequins and a couple of pounds of clay, we set out to make our own models. This technique wasn't perfect, but it enabled us to pose the creatures in stances we would normally not draw." - Kevin Cloud
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2004 10:27 am
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I've also read that ID hired the guy who designed the minature stop-animation models for Robocop II to bulit the Spider Mastermind and Cyberdemon models for Doom. Adrian and Kevin took photos and colorized them with DPII.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:15 pm
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is the lost episodes free to download anywhere? because i've never played it before. at first i thought it was a TC someone made. or do i have to buy it?
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 11:20 pm
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No, it is illegal to download from everywhere for free, buy Wolfenstein 3D CD from ID Software or Activision, SOD "Lost Episodes" might come with it (not sure).. Brothertank already tired of this same thing every time he been give them a warnings. Old members like me already know the rules after BT change his house's (this forum) rules. Don't post about illegal software questions!!! THINK TWICE BEFORE YOU POST YOUR QUESTION Twisted Evil
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 4:39 am
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Uh, he was asking if it was illegal...

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:26 am
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Commodore wrote:
Uh, he was asking if it was illegal...



Read this what JackaL said

Quote:
is the lost episodes free to download anywhere


See what it means, Download software for free is illegal, which they still sell SOD "Lost Episodes" to public at valued price throught online store. if you download it for free, it is Warez-Stupid Evil or Very Mad and completely illegal for you do this... NO LINKS allows to posted, Period Exclamation
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:51 am
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Dude, he was ASKING if it was free, NOT STATING it was free. You're taking what he said out of context.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:58 am
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<Howling Wolf> wrote:
Old members like me already know the rules after BT change his house's (this forum) rules.


Hey yo
1- I havn't been around as long as you or some people so i havn't seen some of the old rules and stuff
2- I was only curious, and if i knew it was illegal i would've shutup about it, i just didn't know wether it WAS illegal or not.

this was just a question
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 12:58 pm
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@Howling_Wolf: I don't think JackaL is trying to warez anything here. If he'd asked "Where can I download the LEs for free ?", that would be warezing. All he asked was if it was available anywhere or if he had to buy it. Not quite warezing in my book.

@JackaL: Refer to the "Lost Episodes" thread by UberMutant right underneath this one for information on purchasing "The Lost Episodes" (or "Missions 2 and 3" as they're officially known). There are places where you can download them on the Internet, but I'm not going to encourage it. Hope you understand.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 4:37 pm
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JackaL wrote:
i've never played it before.


Don't play it. It's horrible.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:19 am
   Subject: Re: --Lost Episodes--
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Otto wrote:
JackaL wrote:
i've never played it before.


Don't play it. It's horrible.

Yeah, ugly blue walls and guards walking like they have a stick in their ass.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:45 pm
   Subject: Re: --Lost Episodes--
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JackaL wrote:
...or do i have to buy it?


Not Happy

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