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Thomas
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 2:51 am
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Last edited by Thomas on Thu May 26, 2011 7:22 am; edited 1 time in total
Chris
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 4:35 am
   Subject: Re: The dark side of the original maps..
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Darn, I thought this was going to be a topic about how cool the nocturnal missions are! Laughing Shrug

Yeah, there's a few other places where the pushwalls do that too (like e5l8, e6l2, spear level 4). I don't think that the mappers just "thought" that it only moved two square though, because when I had a 386/25mhz computer, the pushwalls almost always actually did move 2 squares. This might because old computers were slower and always skipped 3 tics instead of 2, so it was easier to go over the pwallstate limit (or something like that). Another thing I noticed is that there's a mutant in the passage behind you in E2L4 that should probably have a deaf guard floor on him, or else the pushwall will sometimes jam into him because he's already activated. Heh.

I once posted a fix for the pushwall bug here, but Ripper made a much simpler fix in WOLF4GW (at the end of WL_ACT1.CPP):

::: CODE :::
                //
                // see if it should be pushed farther
                //
                if (pwallstate>=256)            // only move two tiles fix

It's in a patch I'm playing around with here as well. Feel free to discuss this port on Feature Fanatics if you want (or feed me sandwiches!).
Thomas
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 8:08 am
   Subject: Re: The dark side of the original maps..
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Last edited by Thomas on Thu May 26, 2011 7:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 11:16 am
   Subject: Re: The dark side of the original maps..
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A crown blocked by a secret door. The only secret in the map.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 11:24 am
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Last edited by Thomas on Thu May 26, 2011 7:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 7:05 pm
   Subject: Re: The dark side of the original maps..
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Chris wrote:
Darn, I thought this was going to be a topic about how cool the nocturnal missions are! Laughing Shrug

Yeah, there's a few other places where the pushwalls do that too (like e5l8, e6l2, spear level 4). I don't think that the mappers just "thought" that it only moved two square though, because when I had a 386/25mhz computer, the pushwalls almost always actually did move 2 squares. This might because old computers were slower and always skipped 3 tics instead of 2, so it was easier to go over the pwallstate limit (or something like that). Another thing I noticed is that there's a mutant in the passage behind you in E2L4 that should probably have a deaf guard floor on him, or else the pushwall will sometimes jam into him because he's already activated. Heh.

I once posted a fix for the pushwall bug here, but Ripper made a much simpler fix in WOLF4GW (at the end of WL_ACT1.CPP):

::: CODE :::
                //
                // see if it should be pushed farther
                //
                if (pwallstate>=256)            // only move two tiles fix

It's in a patch I'm playing around with here as well. Feel free to discuss this port on Feature Fanatics if you want (or feed me sandwiches!).

Wouldn't it work better code-wise if you did this?

::: CODE :::
                //
                // see if it should be pushed farther
                //
                if (pwallstate>255)            // only move two tiles fix


The pushwall bug I've noticed in the original maps is in E2/L8. One wall - when pushed - will always, always, *always* block your way to another Pushwall you're supposed to activate to progress. IIRC, it moves south, blocking another south-moving Pushwall.
Chris
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 7:59 pm
   Subject: Re: The dark side of the original maps..
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@Tricob: Yeah, and that's not the only pushwall that's *always* inaccessible in E2L8 either. Wink Link 1 / Link 2

Thomas wrote:
A lot of them march into each other. I just had a view at the Ubermutant's level in SOD, and there are a couple of such errors.

Maybe the enemies in Spear of Destiny are more laid back, and like to communicate more? Think about it:

Fred: "How was your day Bob?"
Bob: "Pretty good Fred. How much you makin' an hour now?"
Fred: "Still not enough to feed the kids. Say, what do you think of the weather?"
Bob: "You idiot, we're stuck in a castle from the 40s."
Fred: "But you're an SS, surely you've seen the landscape wall in..."
Clyde: "Hooottt doggg!"
Bob: "Not now Clyde!"
Fred: "Oh crap, it's the Denmarkian!"
Bob: "How'd he get past that wall of mutants trap?"
Fred: "Damned if I know. I hear Thomas is a tank engine."
Bob: "Hurry, take charge before he realizes we weren't walking in a set path!"
Fred: "Hooottt doggg!"
Bob: "You stop it!"


Bob, Fred and Clyde, in the first red hallway of SOD: Level 15. Stay tuned for our next adventures in Episode 1!


Last edited by Chris on Wed Nov 02, 2005 4:24 am; edited 3 times in total
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 9:21 pm
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The Dark Side of the Maps is a Pink Floyd-based Wolf mod that I just made up right here in this post but now that I think about it would probably never be anything but putting Pink Floyd music into the game. Which would be interesting.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 12:45 am
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"The Lunatic's a chaingun boss"

"How I wish how I wish Hans was here....."

"You can find secrets by pressing up against the wall"

Haha who would you fight as a boss Roger Waters mother?
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 7:22 am
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Talking of Roger Waters, check out the latest Meathead Perspective. Great stuff!

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Thomas
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 8:02 am
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Last edited by Thomas on Thu May 26, 2011 7:19 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 6:24 pm
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No, they didn't know the errors were there. PCs didn't run fast enough back then for the Pushwall Bug to show up. By the time it *did* show up, the Hint Manual was already out, and there really wasn't much Id could do. Shrug
Chris
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 8:26 pm
   Subject: The dark side is east, according to my compass!
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Thomas wrote:
A lot of them march into each other. I just had a view at the Ubermutant's level in SOD, and there are a couple of such errors.

On a more serious note (than my last post), you might find it interesting that there are atleast two different reasons for this:

1. The arrows go in a line instead of a circle/square loop -

There is an amazing science behind this that varies between different situations. Generally, the guys at ID look after themselves when it comes to where they place these, but there's some loopholes that really make you wonder too. Take your scenario in Level 16, for example. Here, there's only one example of this, and those dogs will definately be alerted and be running towards you by the time you get there; so plotting their arrows into a circle instead of a line would seem irrelevant; gameplay-wise. Many of these are very hard to notice normally (like in the entrance hallway of E5L7), but there are quite a few cases where you can actually see the guards jammed together before they are alerted too (like in that initial red hallway of Level 15). I guess we have John Romero to thank for this "two or more guards hitting each other on a straight line" tactic, since Episode 5 seems to use it by far the most in Wolf3d. It's pretty cool in a way, as it confines enemies to specific areas. The main problem with this, though, is that the guards automatically turn east when they hit each other, so if you're opening a door from the north or south, it looks kind of silly seeing all the guards trying to walk sideways (even seeing them all jammed backwards when entering from the east is questionable, but less weird). You can easily see this in E5L4 by waiting a few seconds, then opening any of the four doors in the main rooms; seeing which direction all the enemies are walking towards. The only entrance that looks natural is the west one, and possibly the east one, but I suppose it's a not a big deal IF the guards are alerted by your presence fast enough.

2. You are experiencing the "gliding guard" bug -

This is probably what you're talking about, which is not map-based, but code-based. Around every 16 enemies will randomly be chosen to slide instead of walk, making them faster than the other guards, and eventually jamming into them and making a cluttered mess. You can read about it here. This wasn't intentional, and Level 16 would likely have this often, since there's so many moving guards. Once they're alerted, it won't matter anymore though, so I'm guessing that you were either really paying close attention before you started shooting (and waited in the elevator for a while first) or you were using noclip mode when this occured in Level 16? One very interesting thing to note about this bug is that it did not exist when ID Software made their maps for Wolfenstein 3d. It was introduced sometime during the creation of Spear of Destiny v1.0 (which, interestingly enough, was released before Wolfenstein v1.4). So, somewhere along the line of making the levels for Spear, they decided to give the guards that slight variation to their marching frames, and the bug was created. This might explain why some upper levels in Spear of Destiny have so many more "two or more guards in a line" occurances than wolf3d. Maybe the guys at ID were scratching their heads when playtesting the levels, seeing their enemies jamming together for some reason (even though the maps were fine), and decided to take the easy "line" route more often in Spear to avoid confusion. Wonder if any of the beta testers experienced this, looking at the maps and going "oh, this was intentional" or "This makes no sense!". Or maybe nobody noticed anything? Who knows - haha.

Of course, there's a few more interesting map-related enemy movement bugs too (many occuring in Episode 1), like:

3. A dog is on the same path as another enemy type - This is pretty rare, but there are a few occasions of this, like in the last gray hallway of E1L2. Once you open the door, you might see a bunch of different enemy types jammed together infront of you because the dog has caught up to them. You can actually judge how long it took you to make it to the end by seeing how many enemies are lined up behind the dog, or how closely behind the dog they are. I'm pretty sure that this is a minor bug which just wasn't addressed, since they almost always seem to put guards on a different loop than dogs; since dogs were programmed to go faster.

4. A standing guard is sitting in the middle of the path - I found this rather funny. If you go into E1L7, there's a room below you (on the left) where a non-moving guard in standing right in the path. Eventually, all the other guards pile up behind him when you open that door. I'm guessing that this dude is supposed to be a moving guard, or maybe they just wanted to give a little surprise to the people that took longer to get over there.

5. Two different paths are going right through each other - People who play E1L4 on Death Incarnate will get an interesting little treat. There's a room near the top right with four doors; being occupied by a group of dogs. The Death Incarnate dog walks back and forth through their path, which would be cool if it worked, but he always ends up hitting one of them early; thus causing a line waiting to attack you when open the door (you can only see the first two, the others are hiding behind the wall on the left). I could see how this would fun to throw in, though; it adds a new little element of interest to that area.

6. The arrows aren't put in the right place (usually one block off) - Sometimes they'll put a moving enemy without any directional markers, which is ok of course, as long as he's not right beside a solid block and he's alarmed and/or facing you (east) when you see him; which is usually the case. There are a few times, though, when they're just off the mark on one of the arrows. I'll leave it up to you to find them, though I can say that there's atleast one occurance of this in E1L7. There's also a few times when they just won't finish the path, and let the guard run into a wall, like in hallway before the gold key in E1L8. It's almost like they're trying to tell you there's secret passages there or something!

7. A diagonal marker is crossing the corner of a wall - The room to your right in Spear level 13 has a few cases of this. Notice that the turning point by the SS works, but the others don't? They may appear to look the same, but the one on the north-west is actually not hitting the wall. The other ones just jam the enemies into the sides of the walls before they get a chance to meet their second arrow. The officer also hits the dogs sometimes from the corner before even making it to a faulty diagonal marker.

8. The enemies are moving at less than two blocks apart - Those dogs in the opening room on E4L5 are a classic example. They'll always end up jamming together, because the dogs will hit each other at turning points since they're only 1 block apart. Even if you get rid of the diagonal markers and replace them with straight ones, they'll still hit each other. This path also has the "digonal marker over a wall" bug, so if the "less than two blocks" doesn't catch them all, that will (on the easiest two skill levels).

9. Enemies have solid objects in their path - The first room of E5L6 has this. If you take a left and then look back, sooner or later the guards in that path will get nailed by a white pole. I guess that most people wouldn't wait, and just jump into the action right away, so you'd only see a pile up of more than one if you waited. There's another room like this on E3L5, and it would seem to be a bug, since there's a turning point after the collision, but it seems to work rather well (the dogs hiding behind the poles, one smelling the other one - errr). It gets even weirder on Death Incarnate with the SS in the same path, but it works alright. There's an officer right before them that may catch your attention first.

Those are some of the more interesting examples I've noticed in the original maps anyway. I'm sure you can find more though. Wink
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 1:02 pm
   Subject: Re: The dark side of the original maps..
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Chris wrote:
Darn, I thought this was going to be a topic about how cool the nocturnal missions are! Laughing Shrug


It's about time we have a thread like this. Look for me to make one some time soon..

Sorry for bumping up an old topic, but the guard path stuff Chris posted has finally helped me figure out what the hell was wrong with so many of the moving guards in my old add-on. I was wondering why, every once in awhile, the guards didn't move their feet. This should be saved and posted somewhere else, because it's extremely helpful. It's also inspired me to look for more guard-related bugs now as well.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 5:45 pm
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Adhesive_Boy wrote:
This should be saved and posted somewhere else, because it's extremely helpful.

It is - in one of the Code sections. It's called something like "Bugfixes in the original code".
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