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Good News (Words from the BIG GUY)
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 6:57 pm
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After two hours of email relay with Todd Hollenshead (C.E.O of iD Software), I was able to obtain the following information.

This is good news for Haasboy Smile

Here it is (excuse my obliviousness in my questions Razz):

Todd and I wrote:
Q: With Wolf, I am refering to using an altered Wolf engine commmercially, ie the selling of a game based off the Wolf engine (similar to games likeNoahs Ark 3d). I have been led to believe we are required to buy the license off of iD Software in order to do so. I would like to know if this is still possible, given it is over 10 years since the games initial release, and how much it would cost.

A: There's a license in the readme file with the source download. That's what you'll need to go by.

---

Q: If say, one changed everything in the media files (sprites, music, sounds, maps), would one be able to sell the game, or would they be required to buy the rights from you? If it is the latter, knowing an estimate of the cost for the rights to the source, and engine, would be great. I have been able to find costs for use of the Quake engines, but not of the Wolf3D engine.

A: That's for the game, isn't it? The game and the engine source are not the same thing.

---

Q: I think I'm talking about the whole thing. I'll start again. I've been messing around with the Source Engine, and game for awhile, along with several other people. What I'd like to know is whether or not, should we change everything in the media files (grphics, sound, maps, etc), and made several coding changes, would it be possible to sell the game on a commercial basis? Sell off a website or similar. If we did, would we be required to buy the rights for the game from your company?

I've been assuming that the companies that made the games 'Operation:Bodycount' and 'Super Noah's Ark 3D' were required to pay a fee prior to selling these games, and in the end was wondering how I, or anyone else, could sell our own game based off of Wolf3D.

-James Clark

A: Yes, as long as there are no id media files included, you may use the Wolf3d engine for a commercial game for no fee.

---


Now, before any says... "we already know that", there IS MORE! Yes, I was persistant, and asked some more questions:

We also wrote:

Q: Lets say with the VSWAP.WL6 file. It has all the sprites in it (wall textures, enemies, etc). If one were to change everything in that file so it contained no original iD content, rename the file (e.g. SPRITES), and change the extension (e.g. SPRITES.GME), would one then be able to distribute that file?

Doing that with EVERY FILE, and changing the engine around, would you be able to then sell the whole package, since none of the files have anything belonging to iD anymore, besides the engine exe, which is 'free to use'?

A: The above statement [Last part of my question] is the key. I don't want to get into file names, etc. or other stuff where I don't know what I'm talking about. Again, you cannot use the media files; the engine and engine source are free to use. Honestly, I think that's crystal clear. I'm probably not going to adopt your language in the explanation. So you're going to have to get comfortable that I've given you permission or I haven't. My answer isn't going to change.

---


I wasn't satisfied, he wasnt understanding my questions, and I wasn't understanding his answers. His answers weren't going to change, but i was changing my questions...

More emails wrote:

Q: I respect that. As a last request from me, since I realise im simply annoying you now, define what you mean by media files? My thought is that you mean the data inside the files, like music. If this is the case, then I understand completely.

A: Fair question. I think media is a subset of data, which could include source code. But "data files" would be a synonym for "media files", yes. By media, I mean anything that is not part of the engine source code. By way of example, but not limitation, textures, sounds, and map files are all "media files".

---

Q: hmm...i missed something from an earlier reply, are you saying we may sell it, if there is no iD media besides the engine?

A: Yes, it's fine to sell.


After all that (there WAS more, but yer), it turns out,as long as we dont have A SINGLE graphic, map, sound or any music from the original, etc, and we change the engine, we are allowed to sell without needing to pay iD anything!!!

I will probably put this on Wolfsource when I get my Wiki up (pruned of course), so that people who missed this can see it.

-Deathwish (JC)

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 3:44 am
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In translation, the above means the following:

If one made source changes to the Wolfenstein Engine,
Changed the files so that none of original iD files (music, sounds, graphics, maps, etc) are not present

Then you may sell your game, as no iD media is present besides the engine, which is free anyway.

In relation to file names, Mr Hollenshead says he isn't sure, as that isn't his area. However, I would think if you were going to sell it, you wouldn't leave the names or extensions the same neway, thats just common sense!

-Deathwish

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 1:40 am
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Well, if thats the case, I think that I'm going to start thinking about commercializing a game myself Smile

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 1:53 am
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Lol. I've been thinking alot about this...

I'm personally gonna avoid commercializing for now.

If everyone commercialized their games; there would be no community, as the fun about Wolfenstein community was that we could just play each others games and have fun learning new things.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 2:37 am
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Duh. Why is Windows the lamest OS ever? Because it is commercial.
Besides, its needed to run wolf.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 2:40 am
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wat are you on about?

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 2:50 am
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What do you mean? I'm on win2k, for running wolf, games, and my school stuff.
I tried several linuxes for a while, but got back to windows because of the gaming.
On my laptop I'm on windows 98 (200 mhz) for playing wolf and some other old games.

My dad's on win xp, because that's the only he understands.
My other older pc (win 98, 400 mhz) is also on win, but that's because of the driver
for dual-screen.

So, I'm quite sure this is not right according my other post. But most of the windows versions just *uck,
but I got to stick with it for a few reasons.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 2:56 am
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this is completely random and off topic.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 3:00 am
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Well, sorry for that.
But, I just told that example because I agree with that.
Making all of our mods commercial would ruin the community.
Thats the thing of OpenSource or GPL, sharing so everybody gets involved and learns.

- lwmxynedtodth

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 7:29 am
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OK, so we know that a changed form of the engine can be sold. However, you need original graphics, sounds, maps, and music. If you do everything on your own with no external sources, you're fine, but that's a lot of work and if you're like me, you probably aren't great at everything. So now you need to reach agreements with artists, musicians, and/or mappers. They might want royalties for their work.

I gave a little thought to commercializing Orb after reading this and the other thread. However, I decided against it because I didn't start Orb as a commercial project and, therefore, I don't have any agreements with any helpers. I would find it extremely unethical of me to sell Orb containing their hard work without them getting a fair percentage of sales. If I had started out with commercializing in mind, it would have progressed a bit different and I'd have a few contracts with an artist or two and a mapper, at the very least. Beta testers should also get something for their effort on a commercial product. After all, they make sure your product is worth selling.

I, for one, don't believe I'd ever buy a fan-made Wolf3D-based game in this day and age. There are so many great ones out there for free.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 8:00 am
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I am 100% against it as they will dies after game been sold.. so like I said in other thread, Share games with every others for fun instead of sell <BS> games off to them.. free games are spreading around the world quickly than they sell these games.. you will lose alot of money by gnizeraw the games whoever set up the lagelli bewsetis throught internet as I know...


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 8:29 am
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I don't think this is good news, I for one am not willing or able to purchase mods. Besides, I thought this was supposed to be fun to make mods, atleast I'm not here for money. If you want money, get a job. I guess it is the current trend, "making Money" taking over this community too.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 9:30 am
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Yes, my epo too. But maybe, in future years, the engine could be sold, if it is really spiced up.
But making my mod, Killer-suit, is a hobby and for fun. Just to share everything I can and know with people like these.
So if I'm gonna sell it, I want my own features for my own. That is not only a bit egoistic, it will also kill
this community, because nobody will post it great features.

And besides, I'm not an economic or bussinesman, so I do know the heck of selling things.
Well, selling things good :p.

@Adam Biser: of course you can do everything yourself. You can learn everything of course.
But it will take a lot of time. But thats what commercial games are doing too, spending a lot of time.
And if you do it on your own, you can decide everything. Just my opinion, I like doing
things alone.

However, it is great news for the ones who want to. Maybe I in future games, maybe not.

- lwmxynedtodth

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 9:32 am
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Codetech84 wrote:
I guess it is the current trend, "making Money" taking over this community too.

That's been a trend for several millenia now. Smile
But eh, I've got nothing against anyone who's excited about selling their TCs, but really this just means we've got more freedom over work we 100% made. Sell it at a yard sale or in a situation like that, but keep them free online, eh? Some of us don't have credit cards to buy them with, and in your own interests people will grade your game A LOT harsher if you're selling it. What could have won a Dome award could get panned by the whole community and get completely destroyed by the fact that it's not free.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 10:20 am
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Pfft. That's why you sell it to all your friends at a bargain basement price. I learned that anything you know how to do that your friends can't will impress them, no matter how lame. Just yesterday, I made a short four frame animation for a Commander Keen mod I've been working on for around two years. This animation has been shown to two people since: one, a friend from school with some artistic talent, the other a recently graduated animation student. The animation student had some constructive criticism. The friend was like, "HOLY CRAP THAT'S AMAZING".

Goodness knows that I'm not suggesting anyone RIP OFF their friends--just know that they're a good market.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 2:11 pm
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You guys actually gave me an idea...

I create a whole bunch of disks with my extreme TC's and sell them to the couple second hand shops that are all near me, of course this is only an idea.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 2:25 pm
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And why would they buy it?
Use disks, no floppies Cool (there are maybe some bussinescard-disks available - yknow, 200 mb, half the size of a cd)

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 3:02 pm
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lwmxynedtodth wrote:
(there are maybe some bussinescard-disks available - yknow, 200 mb, half the size of a cd)

- lwmxynedtodth

Yes, these business card discs are avaliable at www.tapeandmedia.com. but there's alot of CD/DVD/Tape and others availiable in stock at lowest cost per media.. I don't think new TC will fit on floppy disk unless you are going to split them into 2 or 3 disks.. which they are very useless right now, also many newer computer might don't have any floppy disk drive installed anymore.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 4:36 pm
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I personally wouldn't pay for a Wolf3D mod. There are just so many out there to play for free all ready.
It's about a hobby that I enjoy, both playing and making mods. For me, it's all for the love it. I just couldn't see someone being able to be successful sell modification's of a 14 year old game with lots of limitations. If you can work out a way to do it then all the best to you. But you won't ever see a Wolf mod made by me for sale.

**This following statements are only MY opinion, i'm NOT trying to start a mass debate or irritate/insult others**

If anyone wants to try selling one, i say good luck, i hope you make some cash, but for me thats not what my part of being part of the community is about. Playing other peoples mods and creating my own vision for others to play is what its all about for me. Do you think people like Brian Lowe, AreyeP and MCS are in for the money? Without their generous contributions to the Wolf community the game would've hardly survived. Without the Dome, this forum and the mods/TC's released by these people the community wouldnt have been able to grow into what it is today. I'm sure their are others that will dispute these comments, and you have every right to state your opinion....But this is just how I see it.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:25 am
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Yer, thats all true.

I originally called the topic GOOD NEWS (Read Haasboy), since the whole thing was for him.

@ Adam: Yer, while at work I thought of that too. Especially when nearly everybody uses code tutorials from other people.

I won't be making my game commercial.

@ Haasboy: That is a really good idea Wink

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:40 am
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Me neither. But I already said that. Mr Green
However, my game will be freeware. So all things are mine, nobody may
copy or use it. What will you do? freeware or opensource?

Well, using with permission is cool of course.

- lwmxynedtodth

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