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MIDI in Wolfenstein
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:47 pm
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Would it be feasible - or even desirable - to implement MIDI playback into Wolfenstein, rather than IMF playback? It would dramatically increase the quality of music in the game, but it would probably also end up taking more memory and such.

Thoughts?
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:02 pm
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It would be a better idea to throw into the Wolf4GW code, as it has more memory to code things into it. The Borland version will probably not even come close to support it, memory-wise, but you'd need a coding expert to help with that.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:00 pm
   Subject: Re: MIDI in Wolfenstein
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In my opinion, the some of the midi instruments sound better as IMFs. Plus you can change them as an IMF. I myself don't belive that it would be worth it. And in my situation, my midi playback is set to my keyboard on the other side of the room, so that would seem strange for me to play a game like that.

Just my thoughts on this.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:07 pm
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I'm surprised no one's suggested giving Wolfenstein MUS support.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:43 pm
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That would probably be a logical step before implementing MIDI support.

IMF has a lot of limitations, especially in regards to size. We can do high-def graphics, but our music still sounds like it's being played out of a twenty year old, 40-key Casio keyboard wrapped in blankets.

I just think it'd be cool to have a quasi-orchestral, epic soundtrack (which is the style of music I write). IMF can't even come close to that.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:49 pm
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Just to throw in 2 cents, yes, the regular DOS version should be able to handle MIDI as Super Noah's Ark 3D uses MIDI files. Doom's MUS playback originally went through the Adlib synth anyway, so they sounded the same as IMFs, just with a more MIDI-like data structure. A lot of the limitations to IMF are really limitations in the synth chip.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:29 am
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Thanks for the info, Adam. were Super Noah Ark's MIDI's kept internally or externally?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:36 am
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They were kept internally in the same file and location as IMF chunks (the last chunks in AUDIOT).

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:18 pm
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Adam, I mentioned MUS over IMF because they simply take up less bytes per note. Basically, more music could be squeezed into 64K with an MUS file than an IMF file. That was the limitation I had in mind.

Anyway, would it be any easier to code the game for Midi files instead of MUS files? Harder? Or about the same?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:26 pm
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Right you are about the 64k limit. I was thinking more about simultaneous note play and sound quality.
About the same I think. MUS, if I remember correctly, has a hard coded time base and tempo. Now, songs don't have to stick to the tempo, because the most important thing is the time base (which basically just sets the tics per beat). This was probably done in order to fit with Doom's render clock or whatever, much like how 700 tic IMFs fit into 70FPS. It has been many years since I looked at a MUS file in hex or anything, but I think almost everything else is just like a scaled down MIDI file. Basically, all you'd have to do is convert MIDI codes to Adlib calls and you'd be set. However, I think it'd have to be a Format 0 MIDI file (all notes and instruments in one track).. they'd be the easiest to mess with.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:43 pm
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Ultimator, a twenty year old, 40-key Casio keyboard wrapped in blankets? Laughing
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 5:27 pm
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Seriously, that's what IMF music sounds like on my speakers. MIDI sounds fine though.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 5:39 pm
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Midi instruments don't sound the greatest to me. the brass instruments on my midi play back (windows, not my keyboard) sounds like it is played smoothly. not 'punchy' like in the marches Wolfenstein has. Its because midis are specific to the sound card. it will sound different on most computers. Either that or my hearing is terribly bad.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 6:57 pm
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There's a difference between how MIDI is done now and how it was done then. Before the MIDI player talked to the FM synthesizer on the sound card, now sound cards have WAV tables that they play in order to produce their sounds. You'd have to know what MIDI commands and what port to talk to in order to get a DOS game to use the more modern sounds.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:43 pm
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I'd love to have midi in Wolf as well. It's one of the major features I hate not having, although I like the classic sound in the imf's, the limitations annoy me greatly.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 8:07 pm
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I would love to have MIDI's in there also. Maybe sometime I'll look into it...

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:47 am
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Adam Biser wrote:
I would love to have MIDI's in there also. Maybe sometime I'll look into it...


Mr Green

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 9:07 am
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I make no promises of success, though. You'd have better luck if Ripper was looking into it...

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 1:12 pm
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Anything I could do to help?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:54 pm
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Adam Biser wrote:
There's a difference between how MIDI is done now and how it was done then. Before the MIDI player talked to the FM synthesizer on the sound card, now sound cards have WAV tables that they play in order to produce their sounds. You'd have to know what MIDI commands and what port to talk to in order to get a DOS game to use the more modern sounds.


I assume the "General MIDI" setup option for mid-90s DOS games uses the wavetable?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 6:31 pm
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Now, they used the sound card's FM synthesizer, I believe. I know that Doom did.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 9:22 pm
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Overkill - despite being DOS-based - played back music through Windows Midi with no difficulty. You might check for technical data on that. The current owner of the game's rights is Epic (Mega)Games. The last time I checked, anyway. Neutral
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 7:31 am
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Adam Biser wrote:
Now, they used the sound card's FM synthesizer, I believe. I know that Doom did.


Setting the music card to "Sound Blaster" will give you the FM synthesizer, but "General Midi" appears to be the wavetable.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 7:51 am
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For Doom? Hmm, don't remember the setup program. I've been using ZDoom for so long. You're probably right then. I'm just not a C programmer to say how to implement MIDI support.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 7:07 pm
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Unless I'm mistaken, the source code for the DOS version of Doom *was* released. Maybe I should check it out for Midi stuff.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 9:00 pm
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Looking at the Doom source from id, which is for Linux - I believe they developed on Linux, I see in README.sound
Quote:
id licensed a third party sound library called DMX for DOS DOOM
. And digging around the source I just see remnants and dummy functions that don't do anything and are just there so the code will compile without removing all the music calls.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 7:52 pm
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Hmmm ... Did Hexen have Midi support? The source for it has been released, I think; I've found two Windows-based ports of it, minus the commercial version called Hexen 95.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:29 pm
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It also used DMX, at least according to http://www.doomworld.com/ports/dos.shtml
I did not download and see for myself though.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:01 pm
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Tricob wrote:
Unless I'm mistaken, the source code for the DOS version of Doom *was* released. Maybe I should check it out for Midi stuff.


The released Doom source code is for the Linux version, and the sound libraries had some licensing issues, so all Doom source ports use different libraries.
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