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EoD Editor's Version - Static objects error
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:49 am
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Welcome!

I made this topic, because I discovered that is something TERRIBLY wrong with the End of Destiny Editor's version objects count, and no matter what, I cannot fix it, except by dramatically maiming the levels, which - as you can expect - is not an option in many many cases.

If my memory is correct, the original Wolfenstein 3D allowed 399 static objects to have on the level. Well I don't know how much static objects are allowed in End of Destiny, but the game ALWAYS crashes around having 205 static objects or more on a level. I finish my map, I start the game, and then, the game bombs me out to DOS with the infamous "TOO MANY STATIC OBJECTS!" message. Here, I prove it:



As you can clearly see on the image, I'm nowhere to the 399 limit, and the game still crashes. It is extremely confusing, because the game does not count many objects as static objects (such as pine tree, or rubble or such), therefore the counter does not rise. I believe that's because the game treats these as triggers and such (like the blocking code or the secret door trigger or such), therefore they don't count as static objects, and they should NOT crash the game. Or, if they are REALLY static objects, Mapedit should add them to the counter, just like it does with the original static objects (oil drum barrel, ammunition, medikit etc.) It's like a really crude joke, I can tell you. This damn error makes you restart the game about a million times to see when it'll finally decide that there aren't "too many" objects on the level. Or AReyeP mistakenly (deliberately?) reduced the maximum static objects' count around 200?

As a last resort, I've tried to compile the testgame in WDC with the maximum values increased to 900. No, WDC doesn't solved the problem. Then I've tried the same with the IGNORE MAXSTATS selected. Do you think it failed? Yes it did.

I believe several people started editing the End of Destiny - Editors' version, and may have a possible solution for this problem. I couldn't think of anything which would work, therefore I ask you to tell me a solution, or explain EoD's static objects system, or something, because this fatal error makes level editing plain impossible. Thank you.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:57 am
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That's the problem with those old versions of MapEdit (8.5 and older) - it doesn't count new sprites, it only counts what was originally hard coded into the original source. MapEdit was not really made for source code modified games that contain extra sprites and enemies and doors. The best way to solve the problem is to create a sprite definition list with WDC, and say which are sprites, and what not, and make a map that way...

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:09 pm
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I use Mapedit that came with the Editor's Version.

Is there a way to make the game ignore the number of Static objects? Or at least increase it to 399, which even the old Wolfenstein 3D could handle in 1992? I can't believe that a game which has so many great features - teleporting, invulnerability, special secret levels - would dismiss such an obvious and critical problem, the VERY annoying limit of static objects.

And as I said, the limit extenting capability of WDC also does not work. I've tried it like a dozen times.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:09 pm
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Yeah you won't get around this except by recompiling the exe, there's no way to get more static objects just by changing something in an editor - this value is hard-coded into the source. I suspect that Mapedit (as Ryan said) simply doesn't know when many things are static objects or not, and you've gone over the 399 limit without realising it (because you're adding lots of objects that don't add towards this count). Remember that Mapedit's count of what is a static object or not is completely independent of what the engine considers a static object, and it's what the engine thinks is happening that's important. I'd highly doubt that MCS would have *reduced* the static objects count, and in any case EoD original certainly didn't seem to suffer from a lack of objects.

So yeah - my advice is, if you don't want to create a WDC sprite definition file for EoD - which would be a considerable amount of work - just to take out anything you think would count as an 'object' in the engine (directional 3D sprites count towards this too, remember) until your level works again. Bummer.

[EDIT]

Actually, it would be very easy to create a sprite definition file for WDC, because WDC apparently supports simple conversion of Mapedit definition files to its own format:

BrotherTank wrote:
The program to do the conversion is MEDC under the Utilities menu in your WDC folder. It takes all of seconds to convert things over and then gives you the exact defines from Mapedit for use in WDC.

So the NEW ADVICE is to try what BrotherTank suggests here. WDC's object counter is much more sophisticated than Mapedit's, so you should be able to see your true object count if that is indeed the problem here.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:06 pm
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Hmm, very well. At least AReyeP could've write something about what the engine thinks about this and that object, so which REALLY counts as a static object (or mark them with an asterisk, a star etc.). A better solution would be to allow at least 800 static objects (at least in the Editor's Version), especially if fences, and windows are also counted as static objects.

There are also - I strongly believe - a number of objects, which act as static objects, but the engine doesn't count them as one. An excellent example for this are the dead bodies. Not the enemies you killed, but the ones, which are originally placed in the level as corpses. In the old Wolfenstein 3D, you could have 200 dead guard bodies on the floor above the 399 maximum, and the game ran perfectly. How come these aren't added to the 399 total? What special value they have which the original static objects doesn't have?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:26 pm
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Dead guard bodies count as enemies, so sticking in 150 of those would make for delightfully challenge-free levels Smile As for adding the ability to use 800 static objects, that was harder than you'd think due to DOS Wolfenstein memory limitations - increasing this number too much could result in an abnormal program termination, the bane of many a mod. Usually 399 was enough, which saved space for other features. Nowadays with the SDL code this isn't an issue of course.

[EDIT]

Well I was intrigued by this, so I threw about 200 dead guards into WDC and the game did indeed bomb out.
!

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:47 pm
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I don't get it (I'm a total dumba$$ for programming)....if a game such as End of Destiny has so many unique features, like invulnerability, teleporting, 7 weapons, timed bonus levels, suicide clones picking up treasure etc.etc., allowing 600 or 800 static objects should be easier than taking a piss. Or "fooling" the engine to make passable static objects something like blocking code or such, which doesn't count towards the total number of static objects.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 5:01 pm
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As I vaguely recall it's not really the 'features', but the memory that a giant array holding all the map locations / info for each object eats up. I remember back in the hideous first incarnation of Super Blitzkrieg I added about 10 new unique strings to the code and that just gobbled up everything; each piece of memory you set aside comes back to bite you later. I don't believe there's a way around that unless you can display objects without storing them in memory somehow, like reading/writing to the Gamemaps file on the fly or something - which I imagine would be EPICALLY slow. Or you might be able to convert all your map data from 'near' to 'far' memory, but I never knew how the funt you did that or what it even meant. Stupid DOS! Suicide Clones picking up treasure. timed levels, teleporting etc. are just pieces of code. It's when you need to store data that things get nasty in there.

Anyway I'm just rambling on now and very likely talking more nonsense than coherent facts about reality, so I'm going away. Bye!

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 5:10 pm
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Hm, I start to understand now. Extra features does not require memory, but having static objects DO. Ugh...nasty. I believe that adding new walltypes and static objects (which End of Destiny has plenty of) also consumed memory big time. Yum yum memory! I wish AReyep could come up with something for this...Chris's memory boost would probably work, although I never understood how would it generate more memory.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:17 pm
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Reactor wrote:
Hm, I start to understand now. Extra features does not require memory, but having static objects DO. Ugh...nasty. I believe that adding new walltypes and static objects (which End of Destiny has plenty of) also consumed memory big time.
New wall types don't really take away any memory than it did before; the code is just designed to read and store the wall values differently than the original code did.

Quote:
Yum yum memory! I wish AReyep could come up with something for this...Chris's memory boost would probably work, although I never understood how would it generate more memory.
BT did say that a Wolf4SDL port of End Of Destiny was being made. I haven't gotten a status report on it lately, though. Sad

As for Chris's Mem-Boost code, you'll have to read the "Freeing up more memory" thread, which will tell you every change implemented into Chris's uploaded code.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:08 pm
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Just as a BTW, I think EoD had a higher static object limit. Each object requires about 14 bytes of memory each (IIRC) in the DOS source, it might require more in EoD, so the higher you set the limit, the more near memory you use up. Razz
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:31 pm
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You guys have to remember that the EoD Editors version was written using the DOS source, as the SDL version wasn't out at that time... it came later...

You have to remember that like the original game... each vase, light, blood splater, etc, counts along with all the enemies that you place as static objects. And with all the features that MCS built into that game, he had already compressed the memory as much as he could. Because Mapedit doesn't recognise many of the items as objects to count, you have to manually keep track of them.

Or as HairMachine pointed out one of my posts where I say.. Use the MEDC program to convert the Mapedit definitions over to WDC format, and you can then make your maps... and have it count the objects properly (remember to check the conversion and make sure all the new items come up as sprites/objects in WDC.

As to an SDL version being made?? I'd ask that of MCS and see if he's interested. I only have the source to SR, so the best I could do (in a relatively short amount of time) would be to build an SDL version of SR. Now, I could probably build an EoD version as well, but that would take much longer as without his source, it's much harder to guess as to what he might have done in the game, so that the SDL version would play exactly like the original...

So, for an SDL version of EoD, you need to ask MCS if he can do it, or if he would care to share the source, so that someone else might do it.

That's one of the reasons that the project that AReyeP and I are tinkering with is something that will take some time, as I'm having to re-create the same features of the two original games, and then maybe some new stuff as well.. well.. actually.. the new game will be using 128x128 graphics as a start...

Anyhow... Ask, and see what he says? If he doesn't want to share the source with everyone, ask if he'll share it with Steve & I....

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:58 am
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Just a note - if you want to see how many Total Statistics are truly in the level, you can also run the exe with the debug parameter (i.e. "SPEAR.EXE -noss"), then hit TAB-C. This will also show the Total Actors in the level.

Interestingly... the level with the most static objects in EoD is actually Level 1, with 480 of them.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:27 am
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Chris has a point. It seems to me that the maximum number of static objects allowed in EoD is TOTALLY RANDOM. Here, I prove it!

If we count ALL objects as static objects (except triggers), Level 1 of EoD contains more than the limit. Then let's examine the very last level, Challenge number 4...and this is where things make ABSOLUTELY no sense...


I decided for my TC to have only 3 challenge levels, and reserve the very last one for a VERY special super secret level - the Hypercube. Now then, since the game cannot handle more than 63 doors, I made the doors of passable directional static objects, and used them as doors between the rooms of the hypercube. I immediately tested the level after putting all the "doors" in position. Works fine, ahem. Then I decided to put the traps as well (landmine, fire shooting walls, the spike trap etc.). I was not even close to 300, not to mention 399, when I tested the level again. And this time, the game crashed with the famous "Too many static objects" error...

Something is definitively not right with EoD's limits. There are objects which count as 3 or 5 static objects in the same time? Or the static objects limit changes from level to level? I simply can't think of anything now. AReyeP should have write a few words about what the REAL object limit is, especially if it changes from level to level...

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 9:48 am
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Reactor wrote:
Chris has a point. It seems to me that the maximum number of static objects allowed in EoD is TOTALLY RANDOM.

Man, I think you misunderstood my message - lol. The static limit is actually always 511. Thumbs Up

I tested this with Tab-C on three levels so far (1, 19, and 31). With 511, they all work... with 512, they all crash.


Last edited by Chris on Thu Dec 03, 2009 9:59 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 9:58 am
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511 does make sense if that is indeed it, since it is a nice round number (512). 2^9 if I'm not mistaken. Although reading these problems people are saying that they are having, wouldn't it be possible that certain objects are counting as more than one static object in the game? Or possibly, like mentioned earlier, there are just a bunch of other objects that are static objects that aren't being noted as such in the editors.

^Anyway that's my two cents...

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 10:48 am
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So 511 is the alltogether limit in all levels? I certainly hope so...

Thank you,Chris, you REALLY saved a ton of work for me. Even if I have to count manually, I can have a clear picture what's the overall limit. Now I'm testing it with animated static objects, like Displacement or Death Artefacts, as it's actually 4 sprites in one, so it would make sense that a Teleport Artefact or a Death Artefact would count as 4 objects.

What about teleport destination markers? Are they treated as triggers or objects?

Hmm, Chris, can I ask you a favour? Can you do the same static object limit check on Challenge level 4? I don't have a savegame there, and I want to be 100% sure that even secret and challenge levels will work with the same 511 limit (Challenge level 4 will be replaced with the "Hypercube" level)

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:02 am
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Reactor wrote:
Can you do the same static object limit check on Challenge level 4?

Ok, Level 38 has 227 static objects... and works the same (511 works, 512 crashes the level).
And also... Tab-W lets you warp levels - so you can easily test all your questions too at anytime Reactor. Smile

Lozer_42 wrote:
511 does make sense if that is indeed it, since it is a nice round number (512). 2^9 if I'm not mistaken.

Yeah, I guess MCS likes using computer math just as much as you do - haha.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:15 pm
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Well Chris Smile I owe you for helping me so much Smile I did exactly as you told me (511 object, and not a PIXEL more), and here is the result...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvFhJG3ZBrA


You want challenge? I will give you challenge! Very Happy

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 4:21 pm
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That looks awesome!

I love all the christmas colours and how the walls match with the snow.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:37 pm
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Well I've promised you a TC a looooong time ago. It is finally on its rails Smile The "Hypercubed!!!" level will be only one of the 38.... Smile


So let's make this clear once and for all, for everyone who has Editor's Version and is confused by the static objects error:

Spear: End of Destiny - Editor's Version can handle maximum 511 static objects on a level. The Mapedit included with the editor will NOT count many of these objects, so you may either count them manually, or follow BrotherTank's advice with WDC, which is a brilliant idea.

Fences, blockades, power-ups and traps are EQUALLY count as static objects, just as many extra items, like exploding barrels,breakable coloumns, or ceiling lights, regardless where they are written in Mapedit. The Artefact of Regeneration is found at the bottom of the objects list, and yes, it also counts as a static object.

Triggers, secret doors, and overlays will NOT be counted as static objects however. "Already" dead bodies aren't static objects either. Same goes for secret area markers, and the blocking code.

I hope all eager game editors took these notes. 511. This is the most objects you can have.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:11 pm
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BrotherTank wrote:
As to an SDL version being made?? I'd ask that of MCS and see if he's interested. I only have the source to SR, so the best I could do (in a relatively short amount of time) would be to build an SDL version of SR. Now, I could probably build an EoD version as well, but that would take much longer as without his source, it's much harder to guess as to what he might have done in the game, so that the SDL version would play exactly like the original...
I've actually narrowed down a lot of what MCS has done with the code, but he'd no doubt code an SDL port far more efficiently than I ever could. Asking for the source is probably our best bet. Too Cool
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:33 pm
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I should point out that while already dead bodies don't count as static objects, they do count as actors. Smile
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 5:16 am
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I think I just found more errors in End of Destiny Editor's Version:

- The Artefact of Life spheres don't give you extra lives, only health. You can grab extra lives by collecting many points, but the 1UP spheres doesn't work for some odd reason.

- Your rocket launcher will not fire anything, so you just lost a weapon.

- The game MAY crash at the exploding barrels with the error "Too many static objects!" or "PM15". This can be fixed with re-compiling the game though.

Anyone else experienced these errors, or it's just me?
(If you need a screenie-shottie, I can provide some)

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 8:40 am
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One reason you might be getting a 'too many static objects' error when you blow up exploding barrels is because *sometimes* (but not always) these barrels will drop static objects (like the fire, or that green slimy goo of deliciousness), and this might take you over the limit given other things that have happened in the level. Usually Wolfenstein just doesn't put an item down if you're at the limit however (like when guards sometimes don't drop ammo when you kill them), but I *think* that only counts for bonus objects (which the slime probably is) and possibly not for animated sprites like the fire. It just might be that when you explode a barrel and the game tries to drop one of those fires down there, if it finds your static object list already full up it will bomb.

Man, isn't baseless speculation fun? Sure is, yup yup.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:00 am
   Subject: Re: EoD Editor's Version - Static objects error
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I thought about that too, if I got over the limit, but this happens when I'm at halfway through the level (so I picked up a lot of ammo and health), plus I left 10 objects free space originally, so I simply couldn't understand why the game crashed (there were only 2 barrels). However I changed their graphics - the explosive barrel became a crate of fireworks, and the tasty green goo became a big pile of hot ember (which'd also damage you). Perhaps this error is caused by the graphics modification?

I still don't have the slighest clue about the 1UP sphere malfunction. It restores me to 125 health (and if I pick up more, I get 150 etc.), but it doesn't give me any extra life! I was testing at "Suicidal Tendencies" skill level. I changed its graphics, and the AdLib sound of pick-up. This error does NOT go away after recompiling.

The rocket launcher bug is also "bugging" me quite well. The shooting does happen, but nothing gets shot out of my rocket launcher. I'm not sure it can be fixed via recompiling, I'll give it a try.

Another minor bug is that when you pick up treasure or something, the screen doesn't lit up green, like it should. Not THAT big problem, but I noticed it alrighty.

A more serious problem is that some enemies display funny graphics when walking over a mine, or an Artefact of Death. If you have an Officer or a Clone step on a mine, some random static object will be shown instead of the corpse. The same thing happens if a Clone walks into an Artefact of Death. This error CANNOT be fixed by re-compilation.


I have a sneaky feeling that End of Destiny Editor's Version was NOT tested properly...

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 10:21 am
   Subject: Re: EoD Editor's Version - Static objects error
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Reactor wrote:

I still don't have the slighest clue about the 1UP sphere malfunction. It restores me to 125 health (and if I pick up more, I get 150 etc.), but it doesn't give me any extra life! I was testing at "Suicidal Tendencies" skill level. I changed its graphics, and the AdLib sound of pick-up. This error does NOT go away after recompiling.


http://www.areyep.com/eodmanual/i.html#Artefacts

Looks to me that it isn't supposed to give you an extra life.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 1:02 pm
   Subject: Re: EoD Editor's Version - Static objects error
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I tested it, you were right. So the Artefact of Life does not give you 1 extra life. Okay then Smile One less problems to worry about.

Yet I found an interesting thing in the game: If you put the snowman (Secret level 3 snowmen) into other levels, and it drops treasure for you, you may grab 130-160 percentage for treasure ratio, but you don't get 10000 bonus like you should.

The same goes for secret ratio. Do NOT put two secret doors on one secret area trigger, because the game will say 110-130+ for secret ratio, and you don't get the 10000 bonus either.

It also worths mentioning that the enemy "reinforcement spawn" triggers fail to work sometimes. Even if you're under tha maximum enemy limit, these triggers will not bring any reinforcements (of course, this will effect your endlevel ratios as well!).

Another thing about reinforcements spawn triggers is that you should NOT put explosive barrels and suicide clones near them, or the enemy will spawn dead right away. No joke! If a suicide clone or a barrel explodes near a pace where an enemy should spawn, it will appear totally dead, even leaves ammo for you. This is not an error (at least, this one can be avoided easily), but take this account when messin' 'round with End of Destiny - Editor's version.

I also noticed the "Teleport artefact ?" and "Warp Entry ?" items in Mapedit. Do not use them, as they are nothing, really. These ?-marked "teleport artefacts" will not appear on the level, and the "warp entry" items are stationary teleporting artefacts without any effects, you can walk through them, and nothing happens. They might be useful in some levels to create a "teleporting nightmare" illusion, but nothing more.

And last, but not least, I discovered the usage of those "redundant" bits in the highest line. AReyeP wrote a textfile with map editing notes, and mentions that the top line should not be used in the map, this is where you set the textured floor, ceiling, and shading. He points that from co-ordinates 3,0 to 7,0, it is redundant, and once it was used for weather effects, but now since it was hard-coded into the game, these stuff aren't used for anything. This is not entirely true. It has to do something with the floor-ceiling changes when you teleport around. Put incorrect things here, and the game shall bomb you out to DOS with "PM15" error message. This is another thing which a clever editor person should not ignore.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 7:25 pm
   Subject: Re: EoD Editor's Version - Static objects error
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Reactor wrote:
A more serious problem is that some enemies display funny graphics when walking over a mine, or an Artefact of Death. If you have an Officer or a Clone step on a mine, some random static object will be shown instead of the corpse. The same thing happens if a Clone walks into an Artefact of Death. This error CANNOT be fixed by re-compilation.
Reactor - Did you insert a sprite in the VSWAP at any time? This will always cause erratic behavior like you've described.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 10:55 pm
   Subject: Re: EoD Editor's Version - Static objects error
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Well, I DID replace most of the graphics in the game with new ones, but I never added a new "chunk" or a new static object or anything like this. I used only the existing "space". My guess is that Officers and Clones can't handle death by mines, or the Artefact of Death. I mean, in End of Destiny, an Officer and a Clone never gets in contact with a tripmine (I'm not sure about Clone doesn't get killed by an Artefact of Death), and when it eventually happens because of the editing, the game can't "handle" this and just shows some random image from the objects list. I never encountered this problem with the normal Guard, and the Suicide Clone.

I also found out something really interesting. I mentioned 2 days ago that I can't shoot with my rocket launcher anymore. When I got to level 7, the rocket launcher have been "cured!". Seriously, in level 7, I can shoot rockets again, whilst in level 5, I couldn't for some odd reason. I also noticed that fireball shooting walls were also malfunctioning (they didn't shoot anything). I'm seriously curious about what causes this once-works-twice-not fired projectile bug in the game.

Let's look back a little to AReyeP's map editing notes. He wrote that you can't have more than 2 fireball shooters on a level, plus you should use the "Shooting wall" tile, or else the game shall crash. These statements proved to be wrong. Take a look at the "Hypercubed!!!" super secret level I made a video of. There are at least 7 fireball launchers on certain trap rooms (I will not give you map! Razz ), and none of these launchers use the "Shooting wall" image - they use the same tesserakt wall what y'can see around.
(Just in case you wonder that this might be a reason for the frequent game crashes and DIVIDE ERROR messages - no. These cute little crashes continuously happened since I first compiled the testgame, long before I created the "Hypercubed!!!" level)

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