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Should a video game about the holocaust ever be created?
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Joshua
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 10:48 am
   Subject: Should a video game about the holocaust ever be created?
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I was thinking about making Schindler's List into a Wolfenstein 3D mod. The game would have taken place primarily on the battlefield and featured BJ fighting against the Nazis while the end art told the story of Schindler's List. I was even thinking about including an abandoned concentration camp into the game where BJ fights Nazis there similar to Wolfenstein the New Order. Schindler's List will not be made into a Wolfenstein 3D mod. I think the holocaust should be left alone. A person is making a video game where the character is a holocaust survivor.

The mod that actually comes close to referencing the Holocaust without actually mentioning it would probably be World War II 3D. I did have the Schindler's List theme as a midi file for the mod that people could listen to while playing the game. I am going to write a story that will serve as a companion to the game. The story, not the game itself, will have references to the Holocaust in it. Band of Brothers was done in a similar manner to this story that I am going to write. The story will be called World War II Exodus. World War II 3D had an epilogue episode called 1948 about BJ defending Israel from Neo Nazis. Israel became a nation again in 1948.

What do you people think? Should a video game about the Holocaust ever be created?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 3:43 pm
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Personally, I see nothing wrong with making a game that involves the holocaust. The holocaust can be approached in several ways, and no matter how you go about it, there will be people who will be offended by what is made. You don't have to make it about escaping the holocaust for it to be about the holocaust. That is just one aspect to it, and that is one that would fit very well with the Wolf 3d engine (Eisenfaust Origins aka SK).

Other ways to go about this is for the player to stumble upon a concentration camp, which can lead to many different directions such as the player fighting the SS guards and rescuing the prisoners, or the player stumbles upon an abandoned camp, realizing the horrors that have been occurring.

In all honesty though, I don't think the action from Wolf 3d would work well with the holocaust. The holocaust is a touchy subject if it is dealt with non-historically. It may sound cool to have a bunch of gore sprites and nazis and whatnot, but that isn't what the holocaust was. It was people in a camp being forced to work and die in horrible ways. The allies didn't even know of these camps until towards the end of the war.

I think there's some better choices than the holocaust.. Like the NKVD prisoner massacres, or something a little less controversial like escaping from a POW Stalag, or even go with the Pacific side if you want GORE. I have a personal family account of the Pacific side of things, and the Pacific side of the war has never truly been given justice in the Wolf community..

Here's the story:

I had a family member who served in WW2, he was a 2nd lieutenant in the USMC. They sent out 2 scouts to observe the jungle like areas of the beach. They waited, and waited, and the scouts hadn't returned in the time they were expected to, so they moved in, and had a firefight against the Japanese. There was a camp ground, as suspected, where this certain unit of Japanese soldiers were at. The marines pushed them back and defeated them. Afterwards they searched around the camp for their scouts and they found both of them in a large tent-like structure, both skinned alive. One of them was already dead, the other was still alive enough to plea to my relative to end his suffering. My relative ordered his men out of the room, and he shot the man dead. They then buried them both and continued their mission. This same relative was also in the European theater, and while there he was in a jeep accident, which resulted in him having a metal plate inserted over part of his skull. He would later kill himself a few years after the war because he couldn't get the memory of those 2 scouts out of his head.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 6:00 pm
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It's too bad about Sonderkommando Revolt, even though Operation Eisenfaust: Origins was a great mod still and made you look at Mutants differently (and could still be an analogy to the Jews) the original concept was certainly unique and would've made it the darkest Wolf mod thematically.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 6:36 pm
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I have watched Schindler's List & it's a gruesome movie. I haven't watched Band of Brothers.

I'm glad that you typed that you're not making Schindler's List into a Wolfenstein 3D mod.

My Dad knows people who fought in Europe & Japan.

JPB, something about this thread makes me think that you're feeling sad. I had gotten sad just reading it.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 7:05 pm
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I really need to check out Schindler's List now. I remember when they were showing it in Sunday School in the 1990s, and it was so grim to me that I couldn't even finish watching it. The exact reasons why have now been dealt with, so it's time for me to give the movie another try. Smile
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 11:38 pm
   Subject: Re: Should a video game about the holocaust ever be created?
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It's a good theme idea, but as Gerolf pointed out the action of Wolf3d wouldn't fit 100%. Although relatives of mine fled from Europe in WW2, they were never taken to the camps... Their fleeing was because of knowledge of said camps and they had to change names, avoid patrols, and so on to come to America. Personally I think that might be a better idea; to sneak from town to town, obtaining papers and false identities while sneaking by troops (occasionally fighting with silenced lugers, or a Sten SMG).

This idea would fit with a holocaust level or 2 (maybe before sneaking through towns you are one of the inmates), but as Gerolf mentioned; you're likely to come under a lot of flak as some people wanna say the holocaust never happened, others say it's a horrible event that shouldn't be turned into entertainment, etc etc. Personally I wouldn't mind a holocaust mod but it's easy to offend people with such a controversial subject...
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 1:08 am
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A video game about Holocaust should be done, because video games is a media like others so that artists can express themselves.
There is a vast number of films on it :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Holocaust_films

Still core Wolfenstein is not particulary suited for this matter as gerolf said.
Still, with the right modifications, the right angle, why not ?
Yes, I love Schindler's List too. Smile

gerolf>> Sorry about your relative...
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 12:42 pm
   Subject: Should a video game about the holocaust ever be created?
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Now that you mention the holocaust I do have an idea for a Wolfenstein 3D mods based off of Unit-731 which was a biological weapons testing facility used by the Japanese during world war 2.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

I honestly think world war 2 games focus too much on the Nazis as opposed tot he Soviets, the Japanese Imperial Army and the Italians. One common theme of Wolfenstein 3D mods involves mutant monsters created by Nazi Scientists. The idea of my mod involves mutants from Unit-731.

Wolfenstein 3D:the Unit-731 outbreak
Plot(just and idea so far):The year is 1942 during the Second Sino-war of world war 2. A series of documents leaked to the Chinese National Revolutionary Army reveils a secret project the Empire of Japan is working on to give them an edge in the war. Shiro Ishii, the commander of the human expermentation lab Unit-731 in Harbin, China is planning to make an army of genetically engeneered super mutants for the Japanese Imperial Army to help their aggression throughout East-Asia. The worst it is an experimental genesplicing modification(last boss ues it) that turns it's users into deformed combat abominations.
Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia, two counties acting as a foreign supplier of the Chinese National Revolutionary Army receives a message requesting a large supply of artillery, air planes, munitions, etc... in to further arm their troops for an operation to lead a massive attack against the Empire of Japan and take Unit-731 and in exchange promises to give Germany all the data the National Revolutionary Army finds in Unit-731. The operation was called Operation Bio Terror.
In an attempt to kill two birds with one stone the United States has sent in you. You are B.J. Blazkowicz. Known for your countless victories of single handedly fighting the the Third Reich of Nazi Germany you know that you are now needed elsewhere. Your mission is clear.
Assist the National Revolutionary Army as a mercinary during their campaign, reach Unit-731 with them, gather all the documents before they can, and blow the place up preventing neither the Empire of Japan, the Soviety Union, or Nazi Germany from being able to create an army of mutants.


Enemies:
Note:This is just what i've thought of so far.

Japanese soldier:The backbone of the Japanese Imperial Army, these bastards come in 3 A.I. forms. The traditional kind which approched the player and shoots him and the duck and cover approch in which the AI is tweaked for them to position themselves behind a 3D block, pop out, and shoot at the player. The third is stationary. Shooting at the player, standing idle, and then shooting at the player again. Uses the death grunt sounds the human enemies from Turok Dinosaur Hunter use.

Suicide bomber:Remember the suicide bombing clones from Spear Resurrection? These basards are like them by running up to the player and blowing themselves up. The difference here is that the have a charge attack which allows them to sprint at the player in a straight line toward the player while not flintching from damage.

Jeep:Basically a Japanese jeep with a mounted machinegunner. These foes can only go forward, backword, or diagonal. Not left or right. Easily destroyed by missiles.

Tank:Like the jeep, but tougher and with a cannon. They can't move left or right(only up, down, or diagonally) and are best taken out with a missile.

Truck:A truck carrying a load of Japanese soldiers. The appear when the player approches a trigger that causes them to move in a scripted destination on the field and park themselves so the soldiers can get off. A truck is really just 8 3D blocks put together to form a truck. The blocks move along to their scripted destination sometimes smashing a gate/fence in the process(this has been done in the mod Death Trigger, so I know this is possible).

Zombie:Mutated victims of Shiro Ishii's mutant virus. Unlike other enemies which are activated by sound these guys can only activated by either seeing the player or walking over an event trigger. The don't flintch when getting shot meaning players must shoot at them while moving backwards.

Zombie arm blade men:Experimental mutants from Unit-731. Like the zombies, but their have a built in shield on one hand and a blade on the other. They can only be hit when close to the player since that's when they remove their shields from their chest.

Demoniod:These genetically engeneered humanoid creature fight much like the zombies, except they are far faster and can take much more damage with their sharp claws. They also don;t finch when shot. Most dangerious is their forward jump attack which thrusts their bodies forward, slashing the player.

Ape trooper:Armed with a arm missile launcher, these ape like creatures attack by firing three missile(much like the cyberdemon from Doom). There's a delay before they do, so you can take cover.

Venom Spitter:These giant spiders with tenticle like arms appear in mining tunnels aswell as other underground areas. The attack by spitting acid at the player. However their attack has limited range as the acid falls to the floor.

Worm nest:Encountered in enclosed spaces, these creatures attack by spitting clustered of paracitic worms at the player that chase the player for a few seconds. The die however so taking potshots at these guys is essencial.

Unique levels:
A cliff level where the player shoot enemy on the side of a cliff. Eventually leads to a river dam.
A level taking place during a flood where the water causes you to drown. In this level you'll navigate using the roof tops.
A sewer boss level where where there a massive room consisting of sewer water(done using the highwall effects which are explained later). A masssive system of rail ways are contructed throughout. Eventually the boss will show up by poping out of the water. The boss is a gaint octopus that uses two attacks which he seems to use at the same time. The first is a tenticle sweep in which a tenticle will pop out of the water next to the railway(this is done by having each tenticle consisting of multiple sprites. Kinda like a an Snes/Genesis game). The second is the acid spray attack which requires players to look at the boss while they are running from the tenticle to avoid. The gaint octopus uses the same sound as the Gonarch from Half Life and looks much like the Leviathan(the octopus boss) from Splatterhouse 2. Music used in this level(it starts once the boss appears):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZfTNCpS7X4

New special effects:
The game would be done using a uniquely modified Wolfenstein 3D source code allows manipulate virtually anything like the Zdoom engine.

Exploding 3D blocks:Certian 3D blocks can disappear uppon the players approch can disappear with granted has been been done in Orb of Dilaaria, but here when they do fire and debris spits out in various directions indicating them being destroyed by an explosive. Used numerous times for enemy intro's(espeically tanks).

Buttomless pits. You may notice how some Wolfenstein 3D mods have skies, but what about the ablity to apply that to the floor. In additon to buttomless pits 3d speical effects are made to make the buttomless pits have walls at the side(a cliff for example).

Highwall effects:Many levels that use the outdoor atmospehere effect will also have atmospehere's rendered in 3D to give the player the illusion that certain walls are bigger than they actually are. However the height of the wall very allowing for more freedom to decorate levels.

Intro animations:many enemies might have intro animations. For example:Japanese soldiers might jump through a hole in the ceiling in buildings.

Multiple death animations:Many enemies will have multiple death animations each done smoothly.

The game will not only use gun bobbing when players are using, but also screen bobbing in which the screen bobs up and down when players are moving(There's a Wolfenstein 3D mod called Death Trigger which allows you to look up and down. Might be a good place to start).

All gun shots from enemy will emite a spark. You may remember how in Castle Totenkopf SDL Edition used this feature. Here the game uses those sparks on every shot an enemy makes.

Blood splat sprites not only appear when enemies are shot, but are also used excessively when an enemy is killed. For example:A Japanese soldier holds his neck will have blood sprites gushing from it.

Ladders. Using speical effects walking up to a labber will activate a cutscene in first person to give the player the illusion that they are climbing the ladder in the in game engine.

Enemies are fully animated.

Gameplay features:
10 guns and 7 ammo types. The game limits how much ammo you have forcing players to switch between weapons constantly.
Both in game cut scenes(shown from a different view point than the ground during gameplay) and between level cutscenes which are a parody of the classic Neo Geo arcade game Nam-1975.
Music mostly from the Turok N64 games.
While the game uses the Wolfenstein 3D engine, it is modified to play more like Turok Dinosaur Hunter do to how everything would be designed. For example:the player moves slower, but it's still done in a way that allows player to dodge particles.
A level where you steal a tank. This level would be like the beginning of level 2 in which you can destroy buildings, obsticals, and such. It would use the "Texas Slave Fortress" level music from Battle Tanx Global Assualt.

Cyanosis
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 1:40 pm
   Subject: Re: Should a video game about the holocaust ever be created?
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A mod with Imperial Japanese would be very refreshing to see, especially if Unit 731 is referenced or themed. You know it's bad when even Japan doesn't want to talk about it.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2016 6:50 pm
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jpb6891 -I'm going to post 2 threads to read, and hopefully these will help you & or others on questions such as these. They were once the same thread, but were split so one could remain the mods thread and the other the question you have asked in the first post of this thread. Now I'm not trying to bring up old wounds or hurt anyone, but these 2 threads will answer your question and that of others wanting to use subjects that are still controversial, touchy, or plain out of bounds.

The first thread is:


http://diehardwolfers.areyep.com/viewtopic.php?t=4628

The second is:

http://diehardwolfers.areyep.com/viewtopic.php?t=4304&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=540#75292

Starting @ page 29 till the end...

It's about Sonder and also applies to not only this topic but also to the Trump Mod topic as well... Again, not trying to hash old wounds but it helps explain what can happen. The more raw, touchier, or recent the memories, the easier it is for others outside the community to jump on it and make more of what you are doing than you might think anyone should. In Sonders case, I too was e-mailed as owner of this place and questioned on how I could let someone do something like that. They asked all kinds of questions from who were the people in the community, to what this place was all about, and more...

My reply was simple....

We are a community of people who enjoy playing and modifying the Wolfenstein 3d game created by Id Software, back in 1992. We are not a hate group or anything Neo-Nazi, or Anti-sematic. We exist to discuss the game and modifications to the game that have been done to the game over the years. We keep the game alive by doing so, and should be considered as nothing more than a hobby group. I also suggested that they read the same two threads that I have posted above.

And that was all that I said to each e-mail that was sent to me. With that they could not say anything bad about us, or use & twist anything said here against us. And if they followed up with more questions, I just ignored them as I figured that all had been answered by my e-mail response and the posts in question...

So I hope that helps you and others who want to know about making realistic mods.

Greg
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:06 pm
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^^ Part of the reason my mods have dealt mostly with mutants and soldiers with dog heads.

In all seriousness, the original Wolfenstein was brilliant in its simplicity, and while it did feature Hitler and Nazis, it's very much a work of fiction, and seems to keep a safe enough distance from specific historic events to still be fun. All of my favorite mods are either set outside the WW2 setting or feature Nazis releasing supernatural forces or fantastical super weapons. Historical context isn't a big deal to me as just playing a fun mod with an imaginative premise.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:55 am
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Joshua wrote:
I was thinking about making Schindler's List into a Wolfenstein 3D mod. ...
Steven Spielberg will be on NBC Nightly News tonight about the re-release of Schindler's List. I'm glad that you haven't made that Schindler's List game. I've seen the movie and it's gruesome.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:16 am
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https://www.timesofisrael.com/ukraine-developers-forced-to-scrap-auschwitz-themed-video-game-after-outcry/

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:04 pm
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I'm going to go with "no" on this, the harassment doomjedi experiences is the best example of why not to. Schindler's List in particular was a drama and to turn it into a combat oriented shooter would probably be a great disservice to the film.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:05 pm
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Personally, I don't care what theme is used, no matter how gruesome or tasteless, I'm always ready to try it out.

I don't know anyone from those battlefields, so I have nothing to fear.

Never watched that movie either.

I suppose if you're worried about what others may say, do it in secret.

Quote:
You know it's bad when even Japan doesn't want to talk about it.

Japan doesn't talk about what they did, or apologise, because it's a matter of honour. Most westerners simply don't understand the east-Asian code of honour.
I'd suggest you read the Mistress of the Empire 3-book series. Although it's a work of fiction, the honour code is very well explained.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:44 pm
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doomjedi wrote:

The video on that web site has been flagged. It won't play anymore. If you're trying to say that the press is misinterpreting the game, then I believe you. I sure hope that I'm not missing something about the game because I don't know Polish.

I can just imagine that even today that Auschwitz must be the most disturbing place to visit. I believe that 1,150,000 were murdered there.

As far as NBC Nightly News about Schindler's List, I watched it tonight. Spielberg is re-releasing Schindler's List partly because several people died in The Pittsburg synagogue mass shooting in October.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:07 pm
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stathmk wrote:
The video on that web site has been flagged
I did see it, it's a pity it was put down completely (maybe someone can still find some reupload). Moreso, I've heard of that game before, seens its pics/videos, and I assumed I'll be put down eventually, despite the makers of the game claiming they were not the one to make the trailer, and the particular problematic music over it. Don't remember the full details of the trailer, but it sure had gas chambers references and such stuff.
I did see their "gore system" tests and those were...disturbing.

You can see screens and more details here, you can use google translate:
[url]https://www.igromania.ru/news/77291/Treyler_The_Cost_of_Freedom_rassmotrit_prokuratura_Polshi(Obnovleno).html[/url]

Quote:
If you're trying to say that the press is misinterpreting the game, then I believe you.

Me? Never said that. Just posted a link of another such game put down because of pressure over it - and its trailer - FRESH example, from this year (!). Just like Sonder. To show/say that you need to be very brave/crazy to try to think of developing Holocaust game after all those examples. You think you can withstand the pressure those guys couldn't? I was referring to the question in topic. Regardless whether Holocaust game - should or should not be made ideology-wise. Maybe some should, but done very carefully, historically accurate, with little gore and good taste (not sure it's worth gameplay-wise if historically accurate, but it's a challenge some game makes might want to take on). Something with clear historic benefit of honoring the Holocaust and not making a bloodfest out of it like all the zombie-clones. The biggest issue - how to make a Holocaust game that cannot be used to put videos on youtube where you shoot the jews out of fun or antisemitism - regardless of actual game mechanics and goals. There are so many jew haters and sick people out there.
3D camp recreation is sure good, for educational/historical reasons, virtual touring the camps, for those who can't get to Poland to see for themselves. I only refer to games in particular. Learnwares where you can walk the camp, talk to nazis and prisoners to hear their stories - is perfectly fine.

I did think that particular game was bad taste and bad idea - the way the subject was treated, and I'm glad it was taken down.
Though I'm currently part of a mod that will have a big Concentration Camp level. The difference is - I'm not the head of the project anymore and so I don't care.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:11 am
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I guess the answer to the main question, for me, is that games may be too shallow of a medium to tackle a subject such as the Holocaust. Almost everything would feel exploitative pretty quickly.

Eisenfaust Origins turning into more of an allegory than something literal was a blessing in disguise, afterwards. I don't think any modder is equipped to deal with such a subject in a meaningful way.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:04 am
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Yeah, it was my initiative to redo Sonder is a way I can release publically.
As Sonder was never a statement for me of any sort (political or otherwise), just a project started of personal reasons (past life recreation) - one that got fulfilled by the mere making of it - it's fine it got released in a safer version not to provoke.
Too bad it had me suffering alot between those points because of public pressure.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:48 am
   Subject: Re: Times of Israel Article
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doomjedi wrote:

Quote:
If you're trying to say that the press is misinterpreting the game, then I believe you.

Me? Never said that. Just posted a link of another such game put down because of pressure over it - and its trailer - FRESH example, from this year (!). ...
I'm sorry. You posted the link without an explanation and it confused me into typing that.

I had forgotten to mention that I have a lot of respect for the Sonder mod.
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