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Why did Hitler not have the same amount of hitpoints as Hans
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Joshua
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 11:19 am
   Subject: Why did Hitler not have the same amount of hitpoints as Hans
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Why did Hitler not have the same amount of Hit points that Hans did? They both had the same weapons. Were Han's two chain guns bigger than Hitler's? Maybe that is why.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:37 pm
   Subject: Re: Why did Hitler not have the same amount of hitpoints as Hans
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If you mean after you take his mecha suit, well, Hans is still fully covered in armor while Hitler is whearing normal clothes (and maybe a lighter bulletproof vest).
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:46 pm
   Subject: Re: Why did Hitler not have the same amount of hitpoints as Hans
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Why are bosses stronger than guards? One bullet in the head should kill them. Silly Wolfenstein 2D. lol
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 6:00 pm
   Subject: Re: Why did Hitler not have the same amount of hitpoints as Hans
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Can someone explain to me how anyone would expect a boss's weapons to affect his health total? Hitler has more health because the designers wanted it to take longer to kill him. Or do you not even know what hitpoints are?

e: In case you don't know, hit points are health. Damage output is the same for all hitscan enemies regardless of their weapon, though some bosses (most notably Hans) are set up (I'm not sure how this works in the original source, in ECWolf it's controlled using the "snipe" parameter of A_WolfAttack) so their weapons don't lose damage as quickly at long range.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 6:10 pm
   Subject: Re: Why did Hitler not have the same amount of hitpoints as Hans
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I was referring to the phrase 2 Hitler boss after the armor comes off. I can see Hitler having the same amount of hitpoints that Hans had. Hitler could be wearing armor under his regular clothes.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 6:20 pm
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He has more health because, again, they wanted the Hitler fight to be longer. And again, a boss's weapons have nothing whatsoever to do with his HP count. Why should Hitler have any particular amount of HP other than what the developers thought would make for the best boss fight?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 6:41 pm
   Subject: Re: Why did Hitler not have the same amount of hitpoints as Hans
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Executor wrote:
He has more health because, again, they wanted the Hitler fight to be longer. And again, a boss's weapons have nothing whatsoever to do with his HP count. Why should Hitler have any particular amount of HP other than what the developers thought would make for the best boss fight?


Hitler has less health in his phase 2 form than Hans Grosse does. You can see this in the SDL and DOS code. I thought that the phase 2 Hitler boss should have the same amount of health that Hans does since they are using the same weapons, but they probably programmed it the way they did because he is not shown with armor. Hitler could still have armor under his regular clothes, but I guess for better gameplay they went with less hit points than Grosse had.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 7:31 pm
   Subject: Re: Why did Hitler not have the same amount of hitpoints as Hans
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Your logic does not make any sense. The number of hitpoints a boss has is completely arbitrary and totally up to the designer's whim. Why should it follow some sort of rigid rule that a dual chaingun boss must have this many hitpoints? Why can't it be whatever the designer wants for that given boss fight?

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 9:44 pm
   Subject: Re: Why did Hitler not have the same amount of hitpoints as Hans
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I have to ask....does it really matter?
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 9:46 am
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It doesn't really matter. I create these threads mainly for conversation purposes and to keep the forum active. I still think Wolfenstein 3D is a great game regardless. Executor makes great points. I actually see why Hitler has less hit points than Hans since Hans has armor and Hitler is shown without any.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 8:19 am
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I think what Joshua means to say is:

Hitler's weapons do the same amount of damage as Hans so its not like he is more deadly so there is no reason that he should have less health.

To that I say, since he's is a two part boss, the player already has a chance to take damage and waste more ammo in his first form, so ID wanted to make it more fair to players by not giving his second form as much health as a normal boss. I don't think ID wanted him to be the equivalent 2 bosses, just one long boss with 2 forms. Of course, more skilled players could have easily dispatched a hitler with just as much health, but when ID first made the game few players had really ever played a game as such, so they tried to keep it at a level they thought was fair.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:02 am
   Subject: Re: Why did Hitler not have the same amount of hitpoints as Hans
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The worst is the Hitler getting stuck beside a wall thing (fixed in SDL), which basically makes him a stationary target.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 4:46 pm
   Subject: Re: Why did Hitler not have the same amount of hitpoints as Hans
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Chris wrote:
The worst is the Hitler getting stuck beside a wall thing (fixed in SDL), which basically makes him a stationary target.


Isn't that something to do with some weird hard-coded limit for how many spaces he can occupy before he runs out and then becomes frozen in place? Because I've seen this happen to me before in a DOS mod with Hitler.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 8:01 pm
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No, this has to do with the code marking over any square he crosses. Eventually he runs out of unmarked squares on the map, so he's stuck running in place.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 8:09 pm
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Hitler plays Centipede with his pathfinding and can't cross over his own tracks? That's bizarre.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 8:11 pm
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It is; the Wolf3D code had a lot of interesting problems. Smile
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 8:42 pm
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No, that's wrong too; it's just a weird interaction with MechaHitler and normal Hitler technically being different enemies, but Hitler inheriting the FL_NONMARK flag from the MechaHitler corpse (which is technically dead by the time Hitler himself spawns, hence the FL_NONMARK being applied by that point), which has a weird interaction itself with the way the pathfinding works when the enemy is non-directional. I haven't pinpointed exactly why this happens (I think it has something to do with SelectDodgeDir essentially locking him in one position), but as Chris's link shows, it's easily fixed by just making Hitler not FL_NONMARK when he's spawned.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 10:03 am
   Subject: Why did Hitler not have the same amount of hitpoints as Hans
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Tricob actually is right. It occurs because of this code:

::: CODE :::
/*
=====================
=
= DoActor
=
=====================
*/

void DoActor (objtype *ob)
{
   void (*think)(objtype *);

   if (!ob->active && !areabyplayer[ob->areanumber])
      return;

   if (!(ob->flags&(FL_NONMARK|FL_NEVERMARK)) )
      actorat[ob->tilex][ob->tiley] = NULL;


//
// non transitional object
//

   if (!ob->ticcount)
   {
      think =   ob->state->think;
      if (think)
      {
         think (ob);
         if (!ob->state)
         {
            RemoveObj (ob);
            return;
         }
      }

      if (ob->flags&FL_NEVERMARK)
         return;

      if ( (ob->flags&FL_NONMARK) && actorat[ob->tilex][ob->tiley])
         return;

      actorat[ob->tilex][ob->tiley] = ob;
      return;
   }

//
// transitional object
//
   ob->ticcount-=tics;
   while ( ob->ticcount <= 0)
   {
      think = ob->state->action;         // end of state action
      if (think)
      {
         think (ob);
         if (!ob->state)
         {
            RemoveObj (ob);
            return;
         }
      }

      ob->state = ob->state->next;

      if (!ob->state)
      {
         RemoveObj (ob);
         return;
      }

      if (!ob->state->tictime)
      {
         ob->ticcount = 0;
         goto think;
      }

      ob->ticcount += ob->state->tictime;
   }

think:
   //
   // think
   //
   think =   ob->state->think;
   if (think)
   {
      think (ob);
      if (!ob->state)
      {
         RemoveObj (ob);
         return;
      }
   }

   if (ob->flags&FL_NEVERMARK)
      return;

   if ( (ob->flags&FL_NONMARK) && actorat[ob->tilex][ob->tiley])
      return;


   actorat[ob->tilex][ob->tiley] = ob;
}


If "FL_NONMARK" is set, it marks an empty tile when an actor moves onto it, but doesn't unmark it when the actor leaves it. If the actor has "FL_SHOOTABLE" set, it will prevent enemies from moving onto the tile.

This is also why a rocket or needle moving through a door prevents the door from closing after it has moved through it. Projectiles don't have "FL_SHOOTABLE" set, but "CloseDoor" doesn't check for that flag.

This also prevents pushwalls from being pushed over the tile.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 2:53 pm
   Subject: Re: Why did Hitler not have the same amount of hitpoints as
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Matthew wrote:
Tricob actually is right. It occurs because of this code:

::: CODE :::
/*
=====================
=
= DoActor
=
=====================
*/

void DoActor (objtype *ob)
{
   void (*think)(objtype *);

   if (!ob->active && !areabyplayer[ob->areanumber])
      return;

   if (!(ob->flags&(FL_NONMARK|FL_NEVERMARK)) )
      actorat[ob->tilex][ob->tiley] = NULL;


//
// non transitional object
//

   if (!ob->ticcount)
   {
      think =   ob->state->think;
      if (think)
      {
         think (ob);
         if (!ob->state)
         {
            RemoveObj (ob);
            return;
         }
      }

      if (ob->flags&FL_NEVERMARK)
         return;

      if ( (ob->flags&FL_NONMARK) && actorat[ob->tilex][ob->tiley])
         return;

      actorat[ob->tilex][ob->tiley] = ob;
      return;
   }

//
// transitional object
//
   ob->ticcount-=tics;
   while ( ob->ticcount <= 0)
   {
      think = ob->state->action;         // end of state action
      if (think)
      {
         think (ob);
         if (!ob->state)
         {
            RemoveObj (ob);
            return;
         }
      }

      ob->state = ob->state->next;

      if (!ob->state)
      {
         RemoveObj (ob);
         return;
      }

      if (!ob->state->tictime)
      {
         ob->ticcount = 0;
         goto think;
      }

      ob->ticcount += ob->state->tictime;
   }

think:
   //
   // think
   //
   think =   ob->state->think;
   if (think)
   {
      think (ob);
      if (!ob->state)
      {
         RemoveObj (ob);
         return;
      }
   }

   if (ob->flags&FL_NEVERMARK)
      return;

   if ( (ob->flags&FL_NONMARK) && actorat[ob->tilex][ob->tiley])
      return;


   actorat[ob->tilex][ob->tiley] = ob;
}


If "FL_NONMARK" is set, it marks an empty tile when an actor moves onto it, but doesn't unmark it when the actor leaves it. If the actor has "FL_SHOOTABLE" set, it will prevent enemies from moving onto the tile.

This is also why a rocket or needle moving through a door prevents the door from closing after it has moved through it. Projectiles don't have "FL_SHOOTABLE" set, but "CloseDoor" doesn't check for that flag.

This also prevents pushwalls from being pushed over the tile.


...huh, guess I was wrong. I would have thought that would make the player not able to move there either, but I forgot the player movement has an additional check for the object's actual position.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 3:22 pm
   Subject: Re: Why did Hitler not have the same amount of hitpoints as Hans
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MCS posted the Hitler bugfix originally back in 2007.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 4:01 pm
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Tricob wrote:
MCS posted the Hitler bugfix originally back in 2007.

I posted about it in 2006 (actually I even posted the fix in memboost and patch4gw.txt/zip in 2005 Laughing ).

Sounds like MCS and Matthew both found about it on their own though too, judging by the wording of their posts.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 8:33 pm
   Subject: Re: Why did Hitler not have the same amount of hitpoints as Hans
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Thanks for the correction. It was several years back, and I suspect my memory might have been sketchy there. Smile And for anyone who's ever programmed in BASIC, check the last post of Chris's "in 2006" link. You could get a good laugh out of it. Smile
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 9:34 pm
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Actually, I have never even seen the Hitler bug (I haven't looked at the video linked to in this thread), and didn't know about it until I read this thread. But I figured out why it occurs, just by looking at the Wolf3D source code.

I had encountered the projectile bug before, and I assumed it resulted from the "actorat" data getting overwritten. I didn't know exactly why it occurred.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 2:31 pm
   Subject: Re: Why did Hitler not have the same amount of hitpoints as Hans
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Basically hp is a defensive attribute that has nothing to do with the weaponry, as weapons are used offensively to hurt the player.

I totally agree with the Ringman's analysis. Hitler is a 2 parts boss so, individually the parts get not that much hp, also remember we can carry only 99 bullets in the original game, and usually the combats are not set to last like emptying 3 times your full ammo capacity.
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