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What do you think is the optimal length for a Wolf3D mod?
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What is the optimal number of levels for a Wolf3D mod?
10-20
30%
 30%  [ 4 ]
20-30
38%
 38%  [ 5 ]
30-40
23%
 23%  [ 3 ]
40-60
7%
 7%  [ 1 ]
Voted : 13
Total Votes : 13

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Barry
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 11:16 pm
   Subject: What do you think is the optimal length for a Wolf3D mod?
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Of course it really depends on inspiration and the story you want to tell, but what do you think is the optimal length for a Wolf3D mod campaign? Ideally you want it to be long enough that it is satisfying but you don't want it to start dragging, risking the player losing interest and not finishing it. Of course the quality of the mapping is also a major factor as there are some amazing 10 level sets out there that blow away some 60 level sets. There are also some 40-60 level sets that start out very strong but seem to lose inspiration in the later levels. However, if we are talking consistent quality throughout, what do you think is "just the right" length?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 4:30 am
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Normally I prefer 20-30. I find short mods to be over too soon (unless they're more experimental ones or ones with 128x128 maps), and longer ones I start to lose motivation to finish after about 30 levels. That might be why I like Spear Of Destiny more than original Wolf3D.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 4:39 am
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10-20 is ideal for me. 20-30 is doable as well, but after that it becomes a bit of a chore to finish a mod.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 5:52 am
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It depends on the number of sittings. If you're taking about completing a mod in one sitting it would be 10-20 at most generally unless the levels are on the smaller side. But if there's no limit on sittings, then I could enjoy a full set of 60 from start to finish if there's enough quality AND enough variety to keep me interested. Or even more, like in all the MMC's combined there's 90 levels or so but that doesn't imply I'm going to lose interest. If you're talking one author though I'd say 30-40 is safer than going for a full 60 but that doesn't mean it's not possible for a full 60 from one author that holds my interest (in multiple sittings of course).

I vote 30-40 presuming the there isn't a limit on sittings and there is enough quality and variety. That doesn't mean shorter or longer lengths can not work well though.

Also all of this is assuming a standard maximum map size of 64x64.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 8:51 am
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20-30, always been partial to Spear sets for this reason alone. 10 for single episode replacements is obviously good and can sometimes be almost as long as a full length game depending on its design. 30+ can get a bit overwhelming and I don't finish these as soon as others, but I suppose it comes down to how well designed, engaging and how often themes get mixed up in a set overall that replaces the full game. The worst thing in any full game replacement is filler levels or running out of ideas by the time the set is almost over.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 9:11 am
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Cyanosis wrote:
20-30, always been partial to Spear sets for this reason alone. 10 for single episode replacements is obviously good and can sometimes be almost as long as a full length game depending on its design. 30+ can get a bit overwhelming and I don't finish these as soon as others, but I suppose it comes down to how well designed, engaging and how often themes get mixed up in a set overall that replaces the full game. The worst thing in any full game replacement is filler levels or running out of ideas by the time the set is almost over.


I do agree with this. One of the issues with my older mods is many of the later levels would sometimes be "filler" being that I was set on 60 levels but would start to run out of new ideas. This was especially the case in The Six Depths of Terrorism and Armageddon. A full game replacement by various authors, like the MMC set, usually doesn't have this kind of problem.

This is why for PTH I went with 31 levels and for Atomprojekt I am going for 35. Fewer levels, but much better designed and no filler.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 10:39 am
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MMC also has the advantage of having a varied selection of features mappers can use for their maps. Both within and between MMC's, there's a lot of variation in the levels. Various mappers helps too, of course.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 4:10 pm
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I voted for 10-20 maps. You usually don't have to worry about a mod overstaying its welcome this way. If the maps are especially large, having more than twenty levels is really overdoing it for me. Every time I play the Spear Of Destiny levels, it seems to go on a little long for me. I wonder sometimes how much better the game would've played and "felt" if there was one episode that had levels 1-10, and a second episode with levels 1-18 (with one secret level for each episode).
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 7:23 am
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It is true that mods with fewer levels have sometimes tended to get more/quicker attention in recent years (unless they're from a really high-caliber author/group, for example Eisenfaust Origins from Team Raycast still got the same amount of attention).

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 7:32 am
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It all depends on how it's laid out; but I went with 40-60. The original game was 60 levels long, so I see no problem in that being the ideal number. Totengraeber had 48 levels, Schabbs 2000 had 50... Those are my favorite mods. Chemical Warfare counted about 40 and even End of Destiny almost managed to get up there too.

But in short: It's all about being able to pull it off. Making the 40-60 levels scope interesting throughout the entire mod is very much a challenge. But when it's good - it's REALLY good.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 8:54 am
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Thomas wrote:
It all depends on how it's laid out; but I went with 40-60. The original game was 60 levels long, so I see no problem in that being the ideal number. Totengraeber had 48 levels, Schabbs 2000 had 50... Those are my favorite mods. Chemical Warfare counted about 40 and even End of Destiny almost managed to get up there too.

But in short: It's all about being able to pull it off. Making the 40-60 levels scope interesting throughout the entire mod is very much a challenge. But when it's good - it's REALLY good.


I agree that 40-60 is a good number if you have enough inspiration and ideas to get there without rehashing or creating filler. Some of the best mods ever made are in that range.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 9:23 am
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Maybe clarify the poll and/or question for how many units and themes you have?

My only concern about justifying with those old mods is just that, they are old and the community was in a very different shape back then so I don't know if it's a good analogy to the present.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 10:00 am
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MrWolfForever wrote:
Maybe clarify the poll and/or question for how many units and themes you have?

My only concern about justifying with those old mods is just that, they are old and the community was in a very different shape back then so I don't know if it's a good analogy to the present.


These mods like Schabbs 2000, Chemical Warfare, and Totengraeber are still considered masterpieces even today. Like Thomas was saying, I think with a longer mod it's important to have variety to keep it fresh. You have to avoid rehashing or doing filler because you are committed to a certain number of levels but don't have any new ideas. It can be difficult to get right but when you do, it can be really good.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 10:29 am
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I totally agree there Very Happy, just make sure people are interested in giving it a try in the first place.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 9:22 am
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I say 20-30. I don't mind larger sets, though, especially if it is only a mapset.

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