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Brutal Death Dealer of Annihilation 3D (BDDA3D) SDL release
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kary
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:44 pm
   Subject: Brutal Death Dealer of Annihilation 3D (BDDA3D) SDL release
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So today i finally finished and released SDL Linux and Windows version of my TC, I hope i didn't leave any nasty bugs in Confused. I also released the sources at the same time, there is nothing special or difficult in there, but in case you want to see how some specific feature was implemented you can check them out.

I tried to make the game more appealing to broader audience, outside of the DieHard community. It plays more like a hybrid between Wolf3D and more modern shooters, hopefully people here won't mind bit of a change from the classic gameplay of the original game and majority of the mods... Anyway, hope you enjoy and any feedback is appreciated Smile

download on moddb: https://www.moddb.com/mods/brutal-death-dealer-of-annihilation-3d-bdda3d
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:58 am
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Looks interesting Smile
Will need to try it
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:21 pm
   Subject: Re: Brutal Death Dealer of Annihilation 3D (BDDA3D) SDL release
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Played some levels. It's a bit unusually weird with the size of the enemies and the weapons.
The graphics aren't the best and it can look kinda trashy (which i don't mind at all) but it's quite consistent in style =p
I like the rather horror theme and look of it. It got some nice, cheesy, old Doom clone shooter charm ^^

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kary
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:38 am
   Subject: Re: Brutal Death Dealer of Annihilation 3D (BDDA3D) SDL release
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Atina wrote:
Played some levels. It's a bit unusually weird with the size of the enemies and the weapons.
The graphics aren't the best and it can look kinda trashy (which i don't mind at all) but it's quite consistent in style =p
I like the rather horror theme and look of it. It got some nice, cheesy, old Doom clone shooter charm ^^


I take trashy and cheesy as compliments Smile. Obviously I'm no graphic designer and I also don't really enjoy spending endless amounts of time with making sprites, I'm more interested in the overall game design, the sum of its parts rather than then parts themselves... Well long story short - upon seeing how my early sprites of the enemies turned out I just went along with it and made a very conscious decision to theme the mod as that forgotten early 90ties FPS complete with a ridiculous clickbait title Very Happy . I also think that using Wolf3D engine for this type of game is perfect and historically accurate considering how much it go licensed back then (even after doom was released).
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:42 pm
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"Brutal" is right; even on Difficulty 2, I'm not getting very far. Going by how far I've gotten. it does appear to be a solid game. Everyone responsible on the project coordination department did a fine job here. Smile
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:48 am
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Playing second level.

It's not a bad mod, despite underdecoration, probably too hard difficulty, some "bulletsponge" enemies and lack of wall variants to help navigating - at least you have fantastic automap that shows you even the viewsight of a player, nice touch. Mod is scary, fast paced.

My main gripe is artwise obviously - it seems there was no attempt to try to make the art fit Wolf3D modding/engine and its palette. Bad rips and palette conversions (without additional recoloring), transparency pixels, unproportional sprite sizes, bad scaling, grainy art without attempt to reduce color depth.
At least it's consistent.
kary
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:50 am
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Tricob wrote:
"Brutal" is right; even on Difficulty 2, I'm not getting very far. Going by how far I've gotten. it does appear to be a solid game. Everyone responsible on the project coordination department did a fine job here. Smile

The project coordination department thanks you for your kind words.
Hm, the game didn't really strike me a super hard, the melee start maybe a bit harsh, but if you explore a bit you will find some nice weaponry pretty quickly. The minimap is tricky - thanks to it you can go pretty straightforward to the endlevel, but you will miss on tons of ammo and health pickups, maybe even a new weapon hidden behind a pushwall (secrets are not hidden on the minimap so they are super easy to find). Well as a proper beta tester I, of course, finnished the game 100% on the masochist difficulty without dyeing, seemed a breeze after i got to stun enemies with the assault rifle.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:52 pm
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kary wrote:
Tricob wrote:
"Brutal" is right; even on Difficulty 2, I'm not getting very far. Going by how far I've gotten. it does appear to be a solid game. Everyone responsible on the project coordination department did a fine job here. Smile

The project coordination department thanks you for your kind words.
You're quite welcome. Smile

Quote:
Hm, the game didn't really strike me a super hard, the melee start maybe a bit harsh, but if you explore a bit you will find some nice weaponry pretty quickly.
I figured it had something to do with my approach and nothing more. Caution and good planning seem to be a requirement early on. I admit I'm not used to playing a mod that way when starting the very first level, but I find this mod's way of doing things to be refreshing. Smile
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:01 am
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The mod is different from others probably because i haven't been around the Wolf3D community and I didn't play many other mods either, I didn't even finish all the 6 chapters of the original game, and I never played SoD... I also made mods and other content for different games before this (mostly for Half-Life). I just like messing with random stuff in my free time, and occasionally a bigger project comes out of it - which was the case here.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:30 am
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Yes, we're experienced enough as both Wolf3D modders and players to have pretty accurate impression from playing a mod about a person who makes it, even without knowing much or anything about him prior, but it's always nice to compare initial impression to actual facts about a person (made this once with Soldat555 and he was impressed of how much I can tell him just from his mod, for me playing a mod is walking the corridors of a mind of that person).
So the mod clearly showed to me right away this is not a creation of a person new to mods and game making, not a newbie crafting, but a modder of more modern games - both in playstyle and artistic choices.
It was fresh and different and shows modding skills...but not Wolf3D modding skills, so yes, this is the impression of a person trying to get into Wolf3D without feeling the engine enough to give it full "respect" (in art department especially), not a person trying to fit in - it's not trying to come to Wolf3D but to bring Wolf3D to where he is and is comfortable...that creates a very different creation to most wolf3D mods that follow certain canons of good and proper (decoration - lack or plenty, room design - realistic versus interesting etc) - which is good and fresh, and yet the "disrespect" of usual wolf3D modding canon of what fits or is expected from a good Wolf3D mod can get some wolfers...uncomfortable feeling and challenge to accept the mod is it is.

Overall I praise this effort and want to see more of you in Wolf3D modding, changing to accept new...views and approaches...but you also need to learn a bit about Wolf3D modding, engine, play good Wolf3D mods etc...hard to make a good creation as an outsider...get into what it is - to make new of it. Feel it, study, it, why certain things work well or work less in Wolf3D mods, what we like/dislike and why we like/dislike it. We might be wrong and we're open for you to teach us something new...but first learn what is, the long-year legacy of Wolf3D and Wolf3D modding.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:31 pm
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In all honesty, you seem to be on the right track with modding so far, Kary, I might unveil things in this game in the future ... things that doen't belong ... but that doesn't mean you've approached the Wolf3D mod scene in a bad way. It just means that there are things in the mod that keep the game from being better as a whole. If you focus too much on making something "appropriate" for Wolf3D fans, you could be robbing your creations of something that could make the games better as a whole. This doesn't just apply to game modding - this relates to the world of entertainment in general ... music, TV, movies, and anything else.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:17 pm
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Wtf did i read. learn legacy, disrespect, respect (in art department especially)? Confused
It's a total conversion, a cheesy one as the name should give a clue and not a classic wolf3d style mod. Pretty sure it's aiming at different audience with different mindset.
I like that it does things different and doesn't try to make another wolf3d edit of itself.
Sure there are ways engine works or level issues and community might not like cause it's not the usual thing but it's a TC after all.
If community would have expanded more often in such wild TC direction instead of making almost everything "wolf3dish" it might have grown bigger as it is now.
Maybe attract people that don't like fat 64x64 bosses, vivid colors and the usual themes.
The art might be rough and not the prettiest but it's consistent, gives it a distinct look which doesn't happen to often due to salad TCs and made by 1 person. Not everyone is able to do that.

kary wrote:
I take trashy and cheesy as compliments

Good, that was my intention ><

kary wrote:
just went along with it and made a very conscious decision to theme the mod as that forgotten early 90ties FPS complete with a ridiculous clickbait title Very Happy . I also think that using Wolf3D engine for this type of game is perfect and historically accurate considering how much it go licensed back then

I like the cheesy title and exactly this, what it tries to be. It's not perfect and has flaws but it's fun for me. It could have been even more cheesy ><
Interesting high scores list. Didn't expect to see the Soldier of Fortune guy there and Halo man got nice score lol
Btw how do you get 4.5 as a rating result on moddb? 9+4 should result in 6.5 unless 9 was a 5 by accident and changed later? oO
I made a video of the first 5 levels.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PkjCtwBpYk
I cut out some boring parts where i'm as usually too long lost =p

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:33 pm
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kary wrote:
i haven't been around the Wolf3D community and I didn't play many other mods either, I didn't even finish all the 6 chapters of the original game, and I never played SoD... I also made mods and other content for different games before this (mostly for Half-Life). I just like messing with random stuff in my free time, and occasionally a bigger project comes out of it - which was the case here.


I welcome this as this is a very refreshing angle from which to absorb this whole Wolf 3D thing... I have watched Atina's recent video and the gameplay looks like a lot of fun, very foreboding and gloomy, not really reminiscent of that much within the Wolf 3D scene (which is always a good thing)... Was especially taken by the pile of skulls graphic and some of the weaponry... And the guards are just ten feet tall... Really dig the way some of the enemies just go splat when you shoot them. And a throbbing heart instead of BJ! Brilliant.

Have only messed about levels 1 & 2 myself... But will probably take it further... Always a pleasure trying new things and again, very refreshing that Kary has not even played the original Wolf 3D back to back. Gives it a different spin on things, more free.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:09 pm
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Atina, we agree in more things than disagree, if at all (if we're to talk about this mod).

I praised this attempt to be different and to come with "clear mind" without peeping at mods already done and ideas already showcased to create mix of picks, as this is where great new ideas can come from. I clearly stated this is clearly a creation of a person not new to modding and gaming, as it shows right away. Person that makes me curious to follow his next mods/works in wolf3d modding direction.
We have set minds already and it's good to see a breath of fresh air, different and valid approach.

I think my reply was balanced, fair and encouraging, that's what I meant to say anyway, without ignoring the other stuff.

Atina wrote:
Wtf did i read. learn legacy, disrespect, respect

Sorry you had to read that, but that's my immediate reaction playing this mod, "respect" word kept popping to mind, and I plan to keep expressing myself in the future while you're free to disagree.
Yes, Wolf3D decades-old modding is/have a legacy. Epic mods, epic failures...one can learn from both. Those are generations of mods by generations of modders - if that's not legacy, I don't know what legacy is then. Each modding legacy if effort/creation/dedication deserves some respect, even if you plan to change things, to do your own things and ideas.

Quote:
If community would have expanded more often in such wild TC direction instead of making almost everything "wolf3dish" it might have grown bigger as it is now.
Maybe attract people that don't like fat 64x64 bosses, vivid colors and the usual themes.

You might be right, we're on the same side...and I can add more to the list - like difficulty levels (issue with most modding communities I know, Keen especially, I want to play Keen mods but usually fail majorly).
There are alot of things that could make Wolf3D modding community more flexible, attractive.
Which is another big issue in modding communities - Doom one especially - old Doom purists/veterans - versus fresh Brutal Doom fans (I can count as both, heh Smile , and can well-understand both and their points) - not all retro communities even want to expend too much (or at least have very hard discussions about the subject) - as the core old fans of the game are not ready to share community with young/new/fresh fans who prefer more advanced gameplay and features to classic Doom gameplay/pace/gore level.

This is similar to what's going here...some praise new, some prefer the "wolf3d we all know and love", and some are in between.
You'll be surprised - even Keen modding community has such issues.

Retro communities are still very much led by people from that era...and they don't like to deviant too much from the classic formulas/canons that got them in love with that game in the first place...and then Brutal comes - adding more modern gaming shooter elements into it - with new fans that come with it - and there is a big clash and bash we all know.

I'm torn in between, and I don't think either side has the full pack of the truth and it's in between - new very much needs the old/veterans, and old needs the new to keep living, giving up to either side is fatal mistake. Yes, new should challenge the old for engine to evolve - but yet respect it when it comes into its established legacy and world.
Yes, retro communities must always try to expand their range and fanbase - or they'll sure shrink to die (we're not getting younger and grownup life takes a toll as well).
Yet I don't think it should lose its identity to make at "all type of crowd" pleaser which has something to fit anyone - when you please EVERYONE - you lose yourself and nothing means anything then and you can't tell Wolf3D mod from Doom mod. Wolf3D has its own identity among retro engines as it has some unique modding styles, tools, ideas that work well and work less - those can and should be challenged, but still not all new is good just for being new, and not all is bad just for being "old/classic". Fresh view is always welcome, but then he might want to study the legacy a bit.

Quote:
The art might be rough and not the prettiest but it's consistent, gives it a distinct look which doesn't happen to often due to salad TCs and made by 1 person. Not everyone is able to do that.
Both agree and disagree. I consistently praise and cherish art consistency in mods (of people who have art skills to make the changes they require - some can and make only small consistent changes and alterations (Thomas for once), some do large ones (WLHack, you, Thejosh...)), but consistency is not all...it still needs to "respect" the engine, resolutions and such, art has to try to fit the engine and palette they are reused for. Consistency is how art relates to each other, but the other big half - is how it relates to the engine.


Last edited by doomjedi on Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:22 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:47 pm
   Subject: Re: Brutal Death Dealer of Annihilation 3D (BDDA3D) SDL release
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No idea how Drawn & Quartered with paper scans, Planet Nexion with 2-3 colors, and Operation Eisenfaust Legacy with its varying resources respect the engine/game then.

I think Brutal Doom is doing more damage than good and gore patches are as old as wolf3d. Not that it shouldn't exist and it's good that it brings new players but bad made, bad history, bad influence. It is as far as you can get from any "respect" for the game/modding in my opinion.
Lot of random people ask mod authors to make their mod compatible for ECWolf without any good reason.
Case in point. From BDDA3D's moddb page
Quote:
Can you add support for ECWolf?
If you think that's funny then check Doom places and the Brutal Doom mod compatibility begging >< People skipping nice mods just cause they aren't compatible and create quarrels.

The old unknown low-budget 90s shooter clones were very far from perfect.
BDDA3D is achieving that charm nicely, also cause of the rough graphics. I don't think it would gain much from palette/sprite fixing etc and is more fun than some of the old clones like "Noah's Ark 3D" or "The Fortress of Dr. Radiaki" (Bodycount's rats got nothing on the rats there) =p
It's bit like you got Thor movie by Marvel and let's say your neighbor made a Thor movie. You can criticize both by the same technical standards or not. Both movies even that it's kinda different worlds. Who of the 2 sides respects the movie format more? I would totally go for the neighbor attempt if it's faster paced, has a fake chicken explode by a hammer and a burning paper box city Pizza

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:55 am
   Subject: Re: Brutal Death Dealer of Annihilation 3D (BDDA3D) SDL release
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I'm not against new, and I think I (we, TR) tried to push limits with some of "my" mods...both feature-wise (Arrow mod....skyboxes, multiple palettes, lighting etc), and theme-wise - from nudity to holocaust recreational mod of actual place.
But artwise I still respecting the Wolf3D engine, trying to use art that was made originally for 64x64 sizes and for 8bit color depth.

Atina wrote:
No idea how Drawn & Quartered with paper scans, Planet Nexion with 2-3 colors, and Operation Eisenfaust Legacy with its varying resources respect the engine/game then.

Well, that's good disrespect then, as I love all of those mods Smile
About planet Nexion - I think downgrading Wolf3D itself is cool, especially in color (not a fan of ultrapixel mod/game fashion lately).
Yet I never liked hires descaling for/to Wolf3D (from photos, models, modern games, even Build art) - that's why I never (for my memory limitations caution - will say "almost never") descale enemies and scenery in my mods and try to use only or mostly art that was made for 64x64 resolutions/old shooters, despite that limiting my artbase by much. Also I strongly prefer art that was originally made with 256 color palette in mind (also look for close palettes that convert well). This I call "respecting the engine". Just as you feed dogs with dog food as you respect their diet, and not with horse food.
Photo/photorealistic art/3D model renders as a base are the worst offenders in my opinion.
Call it personal visual preference. I'm a strong believer in the fact that art cannot look good if descaled (sure if descaled beyond x2), unless big after-fixing effort done on it (and sometimes - even regardless such).
That said - in BoA I lately started used descaled art, as some 128x128 tasks looked too hard for me and I wanted shortcuts. They give good result so far if original photo/model is good quality/background and fitting style, but even that - after long pixel-level editing that is almost redrawing the sprite using base one as reference/outline.
Edits include manual pixel work to sharpen detail, removing/weakening of strong/directional illumination for object to look like a sprite and not illuminated model, color depth decreasing/removing pixel noise, sometimes recoloring etc. "Spritizing" it, and I had good results so far, 2 of which will be showcased in Chapter 3.

Quote:
I think Brutal Doom is doing more damage than good and gore patches are as old as wolf3d

Gore sensitivity is community-relative, what is non-brutal to us - can be for Keen community for example.
I can talk alot about Brutal Doom, more than I have time to write and you have patience and interest to read.

Yes, Brutal changed Doom community for ever and many ways, some are good and some are bad...you seem to have your mind set that bad outweights the good in this case...I'm torn in between and didn't yet decide, follow related discussions on russian Doom community forum, it's brought up there on daily basis and I know what are the different thoughts on this.

It made Doom more modern, popular, brought new people into it, some are good and some are "bad". Split veterans from the new "meat", created tensions within the community, had bad effects on mods that came after it (though it's debatable, I know veterans that still think Brutal didn't kill modding motivation and creativity of Brutal-Era modder, those just didn't get enough spotlight because of Brutal Doom). Many good Doom mods that take Doom in many other good and creative directions now are neglected and underappreciated/undershowcased because everyone just are after Brutal and it's gameplay/features and see its "direction" as the only good/valid direction for future Doom creations.

Brutal was so good it's bad. It is a fantastic and inspiring mod by itself in my opinion (I'm a big gore fan, but really the gameplay ideas there are the most attractive for me, levels of interactivity, detail, resolution of thought, immersion, pace, weapon balancing...alot of things there unrelated to gore that I admire), but puts too large shadow on other mods - both that came before it and after it and trying to get our spoiled attention. It was kind if "this is how Mark sees perfect Doom, and this is how everyone should agree Doom should be".

Quote:
Lot of random people ask mod authors to make their mod compatible for ECWolf without any good reason.

I get it on every mod as well, including the last mod we've just released (you can see it on moddb). Also there is usual request for WASD strafing.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 4:09 am
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Wow, this topic got going Surprised
I find it pretty strange to talk about respect for game engines and art direction when it comes to modding. One of the things I love about mods for any game (and custom, non professional, made content in general) is the freedom to throw shit on the wall and see what sticks. Sure, in many cases you can objectively say that one mod is better than another (especially when it comes to technical quality), but in the end I think that the only thing that matters is weather the final creation is fun or not. Having played many mods for many games in my day, the unorthodox, silly or just plain weird ones are the ones I remember the most, and those are the ones I often tried to make as it is simply more fun to create things when you don't put too many restrictions on yourself.

I have mixed feelings about ECWolf. One of the things that drew me into making a TC for Wolf3D is that it could be released as a standalone thing without the need for the original game, which I think should be appealing for any modder out there, especially when you are making a TC. ECWolf does make it a lot more convenient for modern gamers to play the original game and mods with similar gameplay styles and it seems to me that that is the expectation most ECWolf players have from mods - just Wolf3D gameplay with different themes and superior controls (yes WSAD is clearly superior) - and that is not a good thing for TCs that want the gameplay to be a bit different. Seems to me like ECWolf is more limiting to modders, while being more convenient for modern gamers - not sure about that trade-off.

Regarding WSAD or just Strafe left/right in general, I don't see any reason to not include it as an option in SDL mods. You could circle strafe in the original game, so you are not really making a new feature, you are just adjusting the control scheme to make much more sense. Gamers discovered that WSAD is a superior way to control FPS games very early on in the 90ties (and there was and to this day is, quite remarkably, almost universal consent in this regard). The inefficient Wolf3D controls are a relic of its time - a result of the fact that the FPS genre wasn't really established back than. Yes it does make the game easier, its also making the gameplay much more fun - when controlling a character in any game you want it to do exactly as you tell it to do and so naturally you want the most efficient input device and control scheme for the job... WSAD does not make Wolf3D into Doom, as I said, you could circle strafe in the original game as well, it was just painful to do it with the cumbersome controls. Besides there are other features in Wolf4SDL that arguably make the game easier - such as being able to play in high resolutions and thus see enemies very clearly even at large distances, or having multiple audio channels so you can hear things happening behind you as well as the action in front of you. WSAD just makes the gameplay more convenient - same as having multiple audio channels or having big resolutions.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 9:20 am
   Subject: Re: Brutal Death Dealer of Annihilation 3D (BDDA3D) SDL release
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I'm okay with WSAD controls *if* it's an option rather than something forced upon the player. Keep in mind, Wolf3D isn't much more than a 2-D game with a 3-D perspective. It plays and controls as well as it does because the controls work like a 2-D game. If you shoehorn in 3-D controls into the mix, it'll feel like 3-D controls shoehorned into a 2-D game, and it just won't gel.

I've learned through years of Wolf3D experience that strafing should be done very sparingly ... and only in big, open environments where you have already seen where everything is. There's just too many areas where you have to rotate your view to see what's blocking you ... and whether there's a hazardous object or area to your left or right. You can't open a door, push an object, or push a wall if you're not facing it, so for the most part, strafing is a seldom useful affair ... and certainly not something you should rework the controls for to play the game.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 10:05 am
   Subject: Re: Brutal Death Dealer of Annihilation 3D (BDDA3D) SDL release
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Tricob wrote:
I'm okay with WSAD controls *if* it's an option rather than something forced upon the player. Keep in mind, Wolf3D isn't much more than a 2-D game with a 3-D perspective. It plays and controls as well as it does because the controls work like a 2-D game. If you shoehorn in 3-D controls into the mix, it'll feel like 3-D controls shoehorned into a 2-D game, and it just won't gel.

I've learned through years of Wolf3D experience that strafing should be done very sparingly ... and only in big, open environments where you have already seen where everything is. There's just too many areas where you have to rotate your view to see what's blocking you ... and whether there's a hazardous object or area to your left or right. You can't open a door, push an object, or push a wall if you're not facing it, so for the most part, strafing is a seldom useful affair ... and certainly not something you should rework the controls for to play the game.


I agree that it should always be an option to use the old-style controls for the Wolf purists out there (which is why I added a switch to enable/disable y mouse axis in bdda control menu).

But I really don't see how you can claim that strafing is not very useful or even that it is not desirable - seems to me your thinking is confined within the old control scheme, where you could either strafe or turn, but you couldn't do both at the same time. When controlling the game with keyboard+mouse you want to be able to move any direction while also being able to turn at the same time, with original controls you can only turn while moving frwrd/bckwrd, not while moving side to side and this is very limiting.
For example every gamer who plays first person games will unconsciously turn a corner the same way - you start turning while moving frwrd and when you have turned about 45 you will switch to strafe left/right while finishing the turn to full 90 with your mouse. When timed right this will end up with the player having the best possible line of sight of what's behind the corner while also not breaking the flow of the game. The original controls only make sense when you are only using a mouse or a keyboard, not when you are using both at the same time.
WSAD+mouse simply is superior way of controlling first person games, regardless if the game is true 3D.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 4:57 pm
   Subject: Re: Brutal Death Dealer of Annihilation 3D (BDDA3D) SDL release
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I actually strafe a lot in combat even using the oldschool controls, particularly in and out of cover.

Something to also note is a lot of modern 2D shooters use WASD and mouse (it's the PC equivalent of twin-stick) because it controls just as well in two dimensions as it does in three, with the only real difference being that the movement is absolute in most twin-stick shooters but relative to the player in 3D (although in both instances it's effectively relative to the camera). Having said that, I suspect the standard method for including WASD in Wolf3D mods is doing something a little bit wrong, as when using it in Project X and the MMC it feels weird to me (and not just because you can't look up and down); I think it may be a combination of the high strafe speed, the lack of acceleration and deceleration, and the fact that the player's angle is an integer rather than a floating-point number (so it's difficult to make fine angular adjustments).
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:14 pm
   Subject: Re: Brutal Death Dealer of Annihilation 3D (BDDA3D) SDL release
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OT -

kary wrote:
But I really don't see how you can claim that strafing is not very useful or even that it is not desirable - seems to me your thinking is confined within the old control scheme, where you could either strafe or turn, but you couldn't do both at the same time. When controlling the game with keyboard+mouse you want to be able to move any direction while also being able to turn at the same time, with original controls you can only turn while moving frwrd/bckwrd, not while moving side to side and this is very limiting.
I suppose if you practiced a whole lot on timing the mouse and keyboard just right for many months, it could be practical. For me though, it's been player suicide every single time I've tried it. In hazardous areas, rotating and moving at the same time ... it puts you in hazardous situations that aren't so easy to back out of if you haven't completely memorized every square inch of the room you're in. It's just too easy to back out of one bad situation and into another by accident ... especially if your timing is off slightly and you've missed your safe spot by a fraction of a square. Strafing against a wall pushes you forward or backward whether you like it or not ... unless the angle you're pointed in is absolutely perfect. With that long list of cases, it seems to me that the easiest way to avoid all those difficulties is to simply not strafe at all.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 12:54 am
   Subject: Re: Brutal Death Dealer of Annihilation 3D (BDDA3D) SDL release
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Pick the controls you prefer if you got the option. If you practice long enough you could also play well with a steering wheel in wolf3d.
But generally strafing + mouse is more accurate and got advantage for some reasons Alumiun mentioned.

If you use a cheap keyboard it's making the issue worse with sensitive turning. Turning too much to left or right when trying to align with an enemy or door in
the distance. Dodging fireballs like on level 5 without strafing is meh =p
With the mouse you can move and aim pixel by pixel at the same time. Also you can do strafe running which is fun.
I can play in several ways, also with a VR motion set, depending on the mood or skill required.
I have played Quake 3 for years so the enemy speed in this mod is less a problem for me than my keyboard. In the video i only use keyboard for laziness reasons ><

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:37 am
   Subject: Re: Brutal Death Dealer of Annihilation 3D (BDDA3D) SDL release
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We shouldn't forget Wolfenstein 3D was designed to be playable with keyboard-only and mouse-only. If you've got a keyboard-only player you better give them a way to turn left/right, not only strafe left/right.

Personally I prefer original Wolf3D input scheme over WASD for Wolf3D - vanilla mods at the very least.

Also traditionally Wolf3D has aim assist which means precise mouse aiming is a non-issue.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:13 am
   Subject: Re: Brutal Death Dealer of Annihilation 3D (BDDA3D) SDL release
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OT -

AlumiuN wrote:
Something to also note is a lot of modern 2D shooters use WASD and mouse (it's the PC equivalent of twin-stick) because it controls just as well in two dimensions as it does in three, with the only real difference being that the movement is absolute in most twin-stick shooters but relative to the player in 3D (although in both instances it's effectively relative to the camera). Having said that, I suspect the standard method for including WASD in Wolf3D mods is doing something a little bit wrong, as when using it in Project X and the MMC it feels weird to me (and not just because you can't look up and down); I think it may be a combination of the high strafe speed, the lack of acceleration and deceleration, and the fact that the player's angle is an integer rather than a floating-point number (so it's difficult to make fine angular adjustments).
It's more design than anything else. I actually adjusted the strafe speed in the code one time, and then I realized the strafe speed was the same exact speed as forward and backward before I changed it. When you strafe with the mouse, then strafing seems to work fine. But when you do it with the keyboard or joystick ... not so much.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:04 am
   Subject: Re: Brutal Death Dealer of Annihilation 3D (BDDA3D) SDL release
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Tricob wrote:
It's more design than anything else. I actually adjusted the strafe speed in the code one time, and then I realized the strafe speed was the same exact speed as forward and backward before I changed it. When you strafe with the mouse, then strafing seems to work fine. But when you do it with the keyboard or joystick ... not so much.

In the long hallways of Episode 6 I found strafing diagonally faster than running forward. I think the person who made this speedrun noticed the same. I love using keyboard only and original controls. If it were up to me I would disable the mouse and joystick completely for racing and/or mods with par times, or perhaps only let the player use the keyboard OR mouse OR joystick and not a combination (I thought I remembered that you could use two people to press the Joystick/Mouse run and keyboard run and up keys get an unfair advantage but would have to look at that in more detail to be sure) and I feel like adding two separate strafe keys and "WASD-style" is like a cheat or tainting the original wolf3d.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 2:25 pm
   Subject: Brutal Death Dealer of Annihilation 3D (BDDA3D) SDL release
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Played a few minutes of BDDA just now and I realized just how much I strafe at all times, I play it pretty much like I would play quake or any other fast paced FPS that was released after doom - strafing around the enemies while turning my mouse to keep on target, using strafe while turning every corner... The controls seem very natural to me, i don't feel anything off about them, honestly the game seems 10x harder when not using WSAD+mouse (pretty much impossible on the masochist difficulty). I designed the mod with WSAD+mouse in mind, adding the switch to enable/disable mouse y axis happened only days before the release, an afterthought really.

I grew up with games from around 2000, I always took WSAD+mouse for granted - as does pretty much any FPS player whose first experience with a first person game was with a game than was released in 95 or later... When I played the original Wolf3D and some other mods which didn't have strafe left/right i was just using the keyboard, because using keyboard+mouse when you move with mouse y axis is just awkward and sometimes plain annoying.
When controlling the game with keyboard+mouse I don't think you guys realize just how much off-putting the original Wolf3D controls are to pretty much any gamer outside of this community (namely the fact that you can't strafe and turn at the same time and that you move with your mouse y axis). It's like using a spoon instead of a shovel, it will get the job done but you will likely rip all your hair out while doing it. Yes, the original controls are the way to go when you use only one input device, and because of that should be left as an option. But any newcomer who will want to use keyboard+mouse (which is the vast majority) will want to have a strafe left/right button and if it is not there the newbie will most likely not bother with the mod at all - and that would be a completely reasonable decision on his/her part since learning to control one first person game when literally every other first person game he/she ever played controls differently is just a bad time investment.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 6:24 pm
   Subject: Re: Brutal Death Dealer of Annihilation 3D (BDDA3D) SDL release
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That's why WASD is likely the biggest reason authors being asked to make mods ECWolf compatible.
Just have adjustable options for everyone. Joystick, mouse, keyboard, VR, motion sensor, gamepad. All can be fun and you can combine them as you like.
I enjoy a lot strafe jumping and strafe running in fps games that have that bug/feature so i like the additional strafing speed
but for others, that aren't used to it, it can be weird along with the simple movement physics.
I guess if there was wolf3d online deathmatch people would get used to strafing really fast ><

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 1:25 am
   Subject: Re: Brutal Death Dealer of Annihilation 3D (BDDA3D) SDL release
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Skills levels help to maneuver the difficulty, but still, when using controls that give you additional advantage against enemies - we can make the mod too easy or too hard, relative to controls makers were planning for (and enemies helpless against you - moving fast in and out of view, not to mention sure projectile dodging (wolf3d players keep complaining on easy Bosses, but did they try not to strafe?)...also enemies do not strafe, it's like unfair advantage, unlike in modern multiplayer games against human players).
Game is best to play with intended controls as you experience the game like it was intended. Again, one can adjust skill levels to compensate of a sort...but you guys play on high difficulties anyway.

I myself never use strafing (in Wolf3D, Doom mod or any game - both modern or old)...nor play in top difficulties though.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:22 am
   Subject: Re: Brutal Death Dealer of Annihilation 3D (BDDA3D) SDL release
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doomjedi wrote:
Skills levels help to maneuver the difficulty, but still, when using controls that give you additional advantage against enemies - we can make the mod too easy or too hard, relative to controls makers were planning for (and enemies helpless against you - moving fast in and out of view, not to mention sure projectile dodging (wolf3d players keep complaining on easy Bosses, but did they try not to strafe?)...also enemies do not strafe, it's like unfair advantage, unlike in modern multiplayer games against human players).
Game is best to play with intended controls as you experience the game like it was intended. Again, one can adjust skill levels to compensate of a sort...but you guys play on high difficulties anyway.

I myself never use strafing (in Wolf3D, Doom mod or any game - both modern or old)...nor play in top difficulties though.

The modder makes a mod, not ID software as it was in 92, it is entirely on the modder to make the difficulty appropriate - the way original Wolf3D controlled is completely irrelevant in this context (especially if it is a TC). You seem to acknowledge that having strafe left/right buttons makes the game easier (in other words that it is a superior, more efficient way to control your character with a keyboard+mouse). As I said before, being able to play at high resolutions and having multiple sound channels also make the game easier, do you have a problem with that as well?
The reality is that if you want your mod to be able to reach out to any new audience WSAD option is a must.

Anyway, since strafing is possible both in vanilla Wolf3D and in Doom (with Doom even having strafe L/R buttons) I don't see how you can claim the devs did not intend the players to strafe in these games. Not using strafing in order to make the game more challenging is the logical equivalent of playing with your feet for the same reason. Sure you can play the game however you enjoy it, but you can't expect other ppl to play it and enjoy it the same way you do - having as many options for controlling the game as possible is always preferable.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:14 am
   Subject: Re: Brutal Death Dealer of Annihilation 3D (BDDA3D) SDL release
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It's possible to give the player more abilities yet *not* the player has an unfair advantage. Imagine a platform shooting came where holding down the fire button lets out this long stream of unlimited shots, and you can keep firing as long as you want - and you can point the shots in any direction you want. You'd think that would make the game too easy, but check out the 7:40 mark of this game:
::: CODE :::
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubwuJGS-Jxg

Giving the player more abilities can open the door to new designs and scenarios in your maps *if* it's done correctly. As for Kary's post:
Quote:
The reality is that if you want your mod to be able to reach out to any new audience WSAD option is a must.

If you force joystick and mouse players into using the WSAD control scheme, it's going to backfire badly. The way Wolf3D is designed, strafing only works well with the mouse. The last thing you want to do is draw more attention to a feature that doesn't work well.
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