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Can Mods be considered New Video Games?
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Joshua
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:38 am
   Subject: Can Mods be considered New Video Games?
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Does anyone on here consider mods new video games? I consider the Spear of Destiny Mission Packs three video games even though the remaining two episodes are mods.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:26 am
   Subject: Re: Can Mods be considered New Video Games?
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Joshua wrote:
I consider the Spear of Destiny Mission Packs three video games even though the remaining two episodes are mods.

Three? But they only made two! Laughing

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:50 am
   Subject: Re: Can Mods be considered New Video Games?
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I was using poor choice of words and including the orignal Spear in with the two mission packs. This is why I said three.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:58 am
   Subject: Re: Can Mods be considered New Video Games?
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Joshua wrote:
Does anyone on here consider mods new video games? I consider the Spear of Destiny Mission Packs three video games even though the remaining two episodes are mods.
I suppose there's no right or wrong answer here. Different people will draw the line in different places as to what's a new game and wasn't not. While SOD is certainly a legit entry in the Wolf3D series, whether or not it's a new game is arbitrary. It has new maps, music, enemies, and graphics, but little more. Aside from the Ammo Box, the gameplay is exactly the same.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:21 pm
   Subject: Re: Can Mods be considered New Video Games?
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The line between what is considered a mod and a new game is not well defined, to the point that it's basically irrelevant; really the only properly discernible difference is that new games tend to be "officially released" ones, whereas mods tend to ones made my the community, but as far as content goes there's no real difference between the two (otherwise SoD is more of a mod than even something simple like Wolfendoom is).
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:58 am
   Subject: Re: Can Mods be considered New Video Games?
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Mod - means modification.
Game is made from ground up, mod is modification of previous game, which can be released and sold if you own the rights to its resources.
So yes, Spear can be defined as a mod of shares code and art with previous games.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:56 am
   Subject: Re: Can Mods be considered New Video Games?
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The line is pretty blurry, especially when considering additional terms such as Total Conversions and Expansion Packs. It's hard to defend that a TC is much less a new game than, say, Counter-Strike is from Half-Life Deathmatch, or even Half-Life is from Quake. Each are games which use code, engines, and sometimes even a few graphical or audio assets from the game they are building on.

Btw: sorry for the bump, I only just saw this thread and thought my comments added something to the topic.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:28 am
   Subject: Re: Can Mods be considered New Video Games?
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For me the line is less blurry.

Mod, even as a TC, unlike new game - can use assets of other games (even of not using any of the assets of the game it's based on, being a TC - relative to that game).
New game is a new game - it's either a sequel to a game you're already made (like Golden Axe II to Golden Axe 1) that can then re-use a resources of previous part (all of those - you own anyway legally) + new ones - or a totally new game with all new assets.

TC - is just to say that everytihng got replaced. Relative to what? And if for new art - or art from other games?
By modding standards - even Doom with all Hexen art - is Hexen TC. Is it a new game then?

Many claim that some TR mods and even Blade of Agony are games and not mods (and use mod word just for legal coverage or an old habit that refuses to die). BoA in particular, is Doom engine user that use no Doom asset at all. But is it a new game? It uses assets from Wolf3D, Blood, PowerSlave etc etc, along with new art. Is a mix of commercial art - a game on its own?

And what is FreeDoom status? Can someone legally sell FreeDoom game? If I just remake all walls and thematics wall-per-wall with "from scratch pixels" - does it make this a new game? Or my game?
If I made Batman suit myself for Halloween - can I sell it? If one can easlity prove the idea is based on other intellectual property?

Why is the edge so blurry for you?
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:10 am
   Subject: Re: Can Mods be considered New Video Games?
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doomjedi wrote:
For me the line is less blurry.

Mod, even as a TC, unlike new game - can use assets of other games (even of not using any of the assets of the game it's based on, being a TC - relative to that game).
New game is a new game - it's either a sequel to a game you're already made (like Golden Axe II to Golden Axe 1) that can then re-use a resources of previous part (all of those - you own anyway legally) + new ones - or a totally new game with all new assets.

TC - is just to say that everytihng got replaced. Relative to what? And if for new art - or art from other games?
By modding standards - even Doom with all Hexen art - is Hexen TC. Is it a new game then?

Many claim that some TR mods and even Blade of Agony are games and not mods (and use mod word just for legal coverage or an old habit that refuses to die). BoA in particular, is Doom engine user that use no Doom asset at all. But is it a new game? It uses assets from Wolf3D, Blood, PowerSlave etc etc, along with new art. Is a mix of commercial art - a game on its own?

And what is FreeDoom status? Can someone legally sell FreeDoom game? If I just remake all walls and thematics wall-per-wall with "from scratch pixels" - does it make this a new game? Or my game?
If I made Batman suit myself for Halloween - can I sell it? If one can easlity prove the idea is based on other intellectual property?

Why is the edge so blurry for you?


While I do object to the implication that something is only considered its own game if it can be an independent sold product, I would like to draw a comparison between Freedoom and HacX, a bought and sold game which similarly uses Doom 2's code but has new graphics, maps, sounds, and story. If the difference has to do with whether a game can be bought or sold, then HacX would be considered its own game because they paid id Software $5,000 to license the product. Still, though, HacX is still considered by many members of the Doom community to be a Total Conversion. Because of that, I see whether a game can legally be sold as an inconsequential aspect when considering when something is its own game.

I believe the line is blurred for very much the same reasons I said above: major games have been made by piggybacking on the code (and sometimes graphical and auditory resources) of previously built games, and at a certain point making a major and objective distinction between TC and game will require a long checklist of (what I would find to be frankly arbitrary) characteristics. For example: I'm currently making what I would consider a Wolfenstein 3D TC which uses Wolfenstein 3D as a codebase, necessitates the use of the ECWolf sourceport, programs the enemies and weapons basically from the ground up, implements several new features, replaces in their entirety the graphics, sounds, story, game palette, and maps, reorganizes aspects of the HUD and menu, etc. At which point can I really say that this becomes more of its own game than, say, Blake Stone or Operation: Bodycount? I'm definitely replacing everything with wholly original intellectual property, and the end result will be barely recognizable as a Wolfenstein 3d mod/TC other than its use of Wolfenstein 3d as a codebase.

I'm interested to hear what you think, because I've always found the distinctions to be pretty cloudy the more I think about it. Perhaps I just haven't heard a clear and concise exact definition which clears it up for me Smile

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:25 am
   Subject: Re: Can Mods be considered New Video Games?
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TC is a dying word that a lot people don't even know anymore. Many just call everything mods now.

What's the difference between a TC and a new game? A new game can be made from scratch. A TC has a base on something but it still "converts" one way or another. Total Conversion.
Do the resources it's using matter? I guess it could use from other games and still be called a new game but it wouldn't be a legal one. But then again FIFA, Call of Duty and other games reuse stuff all the time.

How much it would have to change to be a new game? Is a TC an advanced mod at some point and at what point does it change?
Is it a step in a row of steps to a new game with a base? Like Mod -> TC -> New Game?
Where do dlc, addon, expansion fit it in all?
Is a new game from scratch more of a new game than a new game that came out of a TC?

Is Call of Duty a TC of Quake 3?
Is Heretic a TC of Doom?
Is Abrams Tank a TC of Hovertank or is it a new game?

Are all Unreal 3/4 or Unity engine games Mods or TCs ?

FreeDoom, OpenArena, Abrams Tank.. they are free games (except Abrams Tank) with free resources but are they ok to do so?
You get basically the exact same game just for free. The resources are free but it's copying the original game very closely. FreeDoom even has the Doom name in it's name.
There has been attempts at making free Alien vs Predator or Alien games, FreeDuke, free Metroid remakes, Pokemon etc. All have been forced to shut down even that they were for free.
Is Bethesda/Zenimax aware, do they care. just ignore it or are they fine with it?


And what exactly is a new game? A lot games are more like interactive movies.
What makes a game a game? =]

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:43 am
   Subject: Re: Can Mods be considered New Video Games?
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Game is a concept that mixes gameplay, art, sounds...

I can add some questions to this discussion.

1. If I replace all Doom art with very non-looking Doom ones (don't know, robots or knights), not having Doom in game title - but keep the same gameplay, same code - will it be a new game? Example - REKKR game/mod, which feels like I'm playing Doom with an art patch (and intended to be so - to be vanilla compatible). It's still Doom in a way, while no Doom resource used (but code).

Heretic, unlike REKKR, did have different weapons, inventory system, different-attacking enemies and Bosses. It felt like a new game - not only because of art. Music, theme, setting, weapons, enemies. It didn't try to reDoom Doom. You felt in a new world, and not Doom reskinned - and by that I refer to gameplay as well. It's a new game for me, new experience.
New game has to feel different enough gameplay-wise and artwise and not feel like reskinned original, not same product you sell me twice - changing cover and do some "dehacked" tricks.
But so many commercial and arcade games are just clones of one another. Inspired by, getting idea from.
But simple reskin is NOT a new game for me, even if all resources changed.
You can make Galaga clone - but at least change enemy flight patterns, not just looks. Not to be simple reskins. So many R-Type clones....but at least - with different Bosses, enemies, enemy patterns. You can take idea, but bring it home to make it your own, with your own fingerprint on the gameplay and art.

2. Is Brutal Doom a new game? If I do a list of changes - it may have more of those than Heretic ever did from Doom base Smile Is it amount of changes - or totality of those? Why I can replace 10000 things in a big game - and not claim a new game - but change 10 sprites in simple retro game - and claim a new game?

3. What makes Doom - Doom (or Wolf3D - Wolf3D). What is still - Doom, and what is a new game Doom inspired? When they lose their original cope identity? It's totally subjective.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:52 am
   Subject: Re: Can Mods be considered New Video Games?
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I believe it comes to a point where you see so many games that may or may not be legitimately called mods or TCs. And the question reappears so often, you'll eventually end up ignoring it and asking a more important question - is it good? If it is good, then why? If it's bad, then why? What does it do right, and what does it do wrong?

To me, a game is the biggest success if it leaves you something to talk about. Be it good reasons or bad, it's sparking interesting discussion. In other words ... it's entertaining you even though you're not playing it. And the more a game entertains you as a whole, the more of a success it is. Because frankly, games are all about entertainment. Smile
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