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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:06 pm
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Formula is:

Sort Assending Value where value = (HOT - NOT) <- Takes no account of weeks or any other value..

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:43 am
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Rant on Born4battle?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:18 pm
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Born4battle wrote:
Rant on Born4battle?


Yes... to whoever reads the post, it puts their name in there telling them that I'm turning on rant mode, so that it's not directed at say anyone specifically, even though I was responding to Dean.... And again, the rant is based on the same things that if you read previously in the thread, I have been speaking about...

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:57 pm
   Subject: Re: Top 10 Charts
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Interesting idea... so you're thinking something like:
Graphics 1.. 10
Sound 1..10
Maps 1..10
Gameplay 1..10
Overall = (average of the rating)
or to that extent...?

It would be nice to have it associated with a user, so one user = one vote rather than having to vote each week... Then you can rate the game and go on, but still be able to edit your ratings later... something like that...

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 9:08 pm
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That would be a great idea.. And yes, that is along the ideas I was thinking about. I haven't tinkered with the php in quite a while and I'm probably a little more than rusty... lol.. If someone knows of a program that does this and can be adapted to phpBB then I'd really be interested in seeing it.. or if someone wants to attempt programming it as a feature for the forums and a present to the community, that would be welcomed as well....

But, yes, eventually that would be the ideal for rating the games and getting a better overall view of how people thought of the games in question... and it would better represent to those looking for games to play, a fantastic resource to view and choose from.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:13 pm
   Subject: Re: Top 10 Charts
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I think this is not enouph

Beyond

Quote:
Graphics
Sound
Maps
Gameplay
Overall


We should rate "STORY", "Replay Value" as well as some other stuff...

I prefer more extended version of a poll

1. Graphics
a. Originality (now much is "homemade", or if not - at least introdicing new types of scenery not used alot in other mods..not just another type of plant or bones on the floor)
b. Consistency (within the art itself - in style, quality, theme of the mod)
c. Overall quality

2. Sound
a. Originality
b. Consistency
c. Overall quality

3. Maps
a. Quality
b. Balancing (ammo/health, enemies, weapons)
c. Originality
d. Replay value (if maps are fun to play more than 1 time)
e. Boss area design
f. Realism
g. Good use of the VSWAP resources

4. Gameplay
a. Replay value of the mod
b. Consistency and deepness of mood of the theme and overall experience
c. Challenge
d. Smooth flow of the mod

5. Story
a. Originality
b. Consistency with art and sounds

6. Coding
a. Lack of bugs
b. Originality
c. Consistency relative to the theme of the mod
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:59 am
   Subject: Re: Top 10 Charts
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I await your programming DoomJedi...

BT Tank


Edit: I guess that was a little too sarcastic.. just the mood I'm in... Anyhow...

I think you should think about this....

Adam says... we rate... and I agree completely with him...

Graphics - Sound - Maps - Gameplay - Overall

And you suggest:

Graphics - Sound - Maps - Gameplay - Story - Coding - Replay Value



Hmmm..... well yours was a little longer as in you want to add minute detail to the poll and have subpolls of each overall area... That's really not required.. Those things that you subpoll are, (to me) the reasons or criteria that one would use to come up with a rating or value for that area....

Now for the areas you add and drop...

Story:

I'll be honest with you... Most people couldn't give a S@#% about the storyline. I mean ok, yes, it gives you a background and a means to help set the atmosphere of your game. But, once the player is actually playing the game, they really just play the game. They don't care about how little bobby broke his leg and became the slime midget hunting human sex organ parasites because they ate his father 2 days after he did his mother type of thing... (please laugh... that is meant as a joke.. I know I'm not Mr Chokan... but I do try... lol) And to be honest.. most people unpack the archives and just start playing... they don't always read the storylines (especially if they aren't part of the game menu!!!!)!!!

And besides that... Who are we to say that story A is better than stories D, H, & W ?? Each has it's own merrit - and while they can be quite unbelievable and maybe way out there (ie nuts), it's still something that the creator had in mind as he/she/other created the game and thus why the game is made as it is. So.. on story.. Big Thunbs Down from me.



Coding:

Great for the credits.. Nice to know that changes to the code can help with the atmosphere and playability of the game, but what about those that don't add tons of features?? Are they penalized because they didn't do something or what they did didn't meet your personal standards??

And bugs?? Everyone tries to make their games as bug free as they can, but there are always the odd one that sticks it's neck out... And those bugs can be in the map (ie some pushwall that can't be pushed because you shot an enemy through a window and killed it right on the spot where the path of the wall would be - now is this really a bug??) or the files in the game (ie - damaged because your computer froze and you rebooted and it trashed a single byte in a file that causes anomalies in the game)??...

And then "consistency for the code based on the theme of the mod"?? Huh? I guess that would mean including a teleporter that removes the clothes from the enemies as they go from reality to some fantasy place in the players characters mind?? The code is the code is the game... or are you saying something like -> they included a feature that really doesn't support the theme or storyline based on your interpretation of such?? I really don't like where that is going.. I'm not comfortable with it.... And it's really more nitpicking than is really needed...



I say, if you really need to be that picky or shall we say intelectually disective in your critique, then you probably need to write a full blown review of the game so that others can respond and critique your opinions as well... Again... creates conflict or the possibilty of conflict, and somewhere we really don't need to go..

And then you dropped off the Overall... Why would you want to drop that? Especially when by your post you go actually anal on your idea of critique or review of a game? Wouldn't that make a little more sense to have the Overall??

My only question to Adam, myself, and anyone else (everyone really) would be....
On the Overall rating, would this be something that is actually rated by selecting a value or would it be something that is generated by taking the other items you voted on and generate an average Overall based on those ratings?? Or would it be both...

Not sure how that should go.. But as I said.. My php programming is really rusty (been over 2 years since I worked with any php and even when I was, it was only minor adjustments - except installing modifications and changing the logic in those mods), so I would be open to anyone wanting to write and donate such a program to the forums..

I could also start working on something as well, but I can't say when I would be finished... Besides, I think that we should actually do something with the charts in the near future, and be not like a US budget where you count on things to possibly happen so your timeline relies on everything else in the world being perfect, with no deviations in the path that you are predicting... lol... And by 2099 the program should be in a minimum of beta stage.. lol...

Anyhow... I hope you understand my humour and my thoughts.... I welcome the help (if it's available from one of the members)... And I welcome the discussion on what should be included or not within such a program.. I'd like it to be much like the polling area where you get to make those choices.. and possibly post a review as well.. And should the actual votes made by the poster be made openly visible to everyone or should it be a running total at the top?? And... I could go on... but I'll await and let someone else speak for a bit. lol..

Greg
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:11 am
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BrotherTank wrote:
...

Story:

I'll be honest with you... Most people couldn't give a S@#% about the storyline.

Maybe...I respect your opinion. But I'm not one of them. I love a good story...it gives meaning for what you do and for the art you put in...Intermission screens...it makes you to be aware of your progress....
Also I like new enemies introduced to you as you play a mod, each with it's story and background...Orb-style. It makes you a feeling that you explore some new world...and affect the eventline of that world...I love experience in wolf3d ...escapism.
Also it sets you boundaries artwise that make the mod more mood-theme consistent and not random pack of sprites and foes....Good boundaries.
It also gives you ideas for coding features you need for that mod...
Also it's cool to find art hints in the mod for the story...if a dragon was killed - find it's dead body...it's cool those winks on the map to the story...

Quote:
And to be honest.. most people unpack the archives and just start playing... they don't always read the storylines (especially if they aren't part of the game menu!!!!)!!!

I always read Smile

Quote:
And besides that... Who are we to say that story A is better than stories D, H, & W ?? Each has it's own merrit - and while they can be quite unbelievable and maybe way out there (ie nuts), it's still something that the creator had in mind as he/she/other created the game and thus why the game is made as it is. So.. on story.. Big Thunbs Down from me.

Well...I don't agree. Story can differ with detail, how much it creates "art and gameplay" opportunities for the mod based on it, how believable and consistent it is, how original it is...When you write a story - you know it's for wolf3D mod - and you have to plan a story that can look good on wolf3d engine...

Quote:
Coding:

Great for the credits.. Nice to know that changes to the code can help with the atmosphere and playability of the game, but what about those that don't add tons of features?? Are they penalized because they didn't do something or what they did didn't meet your personal standards??

Well...I bet most of polleeers with put existence of gameplay-enhancing coding features to raise a mark of your GAMEPLAY section of the poll. It's fair for non-"featured" mods?
And your GRAPHICS section doesn't hurt those who use original wolf3D art? And music - doesn't hurt those who use original wolf3d music?
We talk here about modding... modding is mapping, coding, art, music...the more of this you decide to MOD - the better is the mark of your mod...it's kinda logical. Modding - meaning: changing, altering....

Quote:
And bugs?? Everyone tries to make their games as bug free as they can, but there are always the odd one that sticks it's neck out...

Again - you think existence of bug won't lower a GAMEPLAY mark of such a mod? If your gun sometime shoots and sometimes not - you think we won't lower the GAMEPLAY mark?

Quote:
And then "consistency for the code based on the theme of the mod"?? Huh?

I meant like no teleporters on WWII mod...such stuff.
A lot of mods overfeature themselves coding-wise just to "show-off" with the coding-feature list - when some features doesn't add nothing, doesn't fit the mod or the theme...When you see that a modder didn't think "which features will fit my particular mod?" - but just - I want my mod to have not less features than mod A/B/C......
I mean Unneeded - annaturally "pushed in", and unrealistic coding features.

Quote:
And then you dropped off the Overall... Why would you want to drop that?

Ok....I agree to Overall Smile
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 6:47 pm
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Anyone else have something to add to the conversation?? Any ideas or thoughts?? While I am responding to DoomJedi, I am asking for input and discussion from everyone as to where, what, why, and how things should be done, shown, used, and added to the program and it's functionality...

Now in response... (and I'm trying not to be funny during this post)....
[Sorry Anonymous, This may seem long winded, but Discussion Mode Activated (please feel free to join the conversation)]

Doom (please read completely before hitting the quote button.. lol) ... I think that Adam was right in his suggestions and I think you may have taken my last response a little too personally. I don't think that the ideas of Coding and Story should be specifically voting options within the program. I am open to the Re-Playability idea, and I am glad that you agree that the Overall should be included.

I know that you personally may look at those items, but (and don't take this the wrong way) are just one person and others may or (and more probably) may not agree with those options as being relevant to the rating of a mod. By that I mean that there are so many game players that just open up, install, and play the game for the challenge of beating the game. They want the rush/challenge and really couldn't care less about the story...

Now there are others that may see things where the story carries some importance in setting the atmosphere of the game. But, they still really want the rush, suspence, and challenge of beating/conquring the game. This group of people is much smaller than the first group that just wants the fragfest type of thing.

And then there are a much smaller group of people like you, who (and I include you here because of the game you are creating and because of your own statements) really get into the storyline. It creates more than just the atmosphere, but a deeper affect in how they see a game, not only from a storyline perspective but from a reality or historical outlook. They also enjoy the challenge/rush like the others, but it becomes part of an overall feel/meaning/depth/atmosphere/enjoyment of the game.

Now... I ask: With so many different views on the storyline and the fact that again, different people will see the story in so many different levels, and the fact that in everyones different ideas of what should/should not/level of education and abilities to use the english language (which is used only because it's the most common langauge in the world used in business and everywhere in the world as a common language to communicate with a greater variety of peoples) can we say that one story is "better" than another.... Sure there are themes and ideas that may appeal more to some than others, but you can't really say that one story is "better" than the next.

With all of that, I look at the story being much less in importance from a rating point of view as it really effects the Overall of rating of the game. I mean, think of the actual story of the original game itself... Take a look at it from the point of mutants.... The original story says nothing of battling mutants.. but we do know that there were parts of the german army that were dabling in things along those lines from a historical point of view... Do mutants actually fit into the storyline... The answer is both yes and no... Yes, because it was a probability that they may have been able to create these on a historical fact, but more yes because it's fantasy mixed with some injection of reality. And No, because if you look at it from a historical fact, there are no actual mutants that (from historical reports) were battled during the actual war...

But which way are we asked to look at the storyline?? It's a fantasy game, because it's a game and not real, with some injection of historical accuracy and some not... And with all of that in mind now.. I think Overall covers the storyline as well..

Now on the coding side of things... Take almost the same arguements and again, I believe that this is something that should be included as part of the overall rating as well. I guess you could say that all of these arguements also fit all the other options in the voting/rating process.. It's all so complicated/integrated/dependant on the personal preferences/thinking/ideas of the person voting/ranting as well.. Even down to the "Replay Value" which I think would be an interesting inclusion to the list.

But through it all, I think that many of the things that you mention would be more relative to writing a review of the overall game/mod... I really do wish to hear more from others on the subjects and exchanging thoughts, ideas, and generating discussion on the process/program. So to others I ask and say that your input is important/welcomed/wanted/and valued for oh so many reasons.. Hopefully in the end, we will have a great program and a interesting thread to read on the process, thoughts, and the like from a wide variety of members.

I've said so much, and yet so little and could go on, but I don't want to appear lecturing, or overbearing, while at the same time trying to support my ideas and train of thought... So with that.. As always...

Greg
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:30 pm
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I think that's a great idea and will give a much more accurate rating of games. It'a so easy to influence results on the polls.

(I wrote this massive email explaining all the tests and results I've been doing on the Polls over the last year but something happened when I hit 'Submit' and I lost the lot - This is all I can be bothered writing again...)

oh, and I agree on not needing to vote on the story. Most of the time I don't even bother to read them, especially when they are 20 pages and give this longwinded setup and then you play the mod and it's like every other Wolf mod... The only time I ever read the 'read this' is to see if I got a credit for anything!! Laughing

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:31 pm
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BrotherTank wrote:

I am open to the Re-Playability idea

Yes, IMO it's important. There are good mods you enjoy playing, but somehow when you finish them - you feel you've enjoyed, and it's an excellent mod - but you don't feel like playing it again.
There are many "good" mods I've played more than 1 time, and even "bad" mods - but that I've played more than 1 time for some reason, as they do have that "replay value". And there are good "all-around mods" that I played 1 time, enjoyed , but didn't return playing.
So it's important to rate and know about a mod before you decide to try it.

This is like Gameplay - hard to put your finger on what exactly creates Replay Value

I think here can go things like alternative paths or exits, large secret area amount, well-designed Boss area you want to try different tactics on...also coding features like inventory (you can use differently each time you play), tactics, destructable scenery (you want to play again and enjoy destructing)...lot's of stuff...

Quote:
They want the rush/challenge and really couldn't care less about the story...

Well, if I love to get an experience from the game, mood, themes - doesn't mean I don't ALSO enjoy rush, challenge, andrenaline - that's why I play 3d-shooters in the first place, (and NEVER play RPG, Strategy, Quest games Smile ) Simple shoot&run Smile LOve those Smile This is my favourite type of game, both to play and to mod.
(btw - did you play latest NDCP2? Amazing quality....)

But when I'm making my mods - I am expected to make those not based on "I hate it, but others would love the mod", but to make a mod I myself would like to play...the only way to make good mods - if the modder loves what he is doing. So my mods are planned to give you both Rush and "Experience". And I bet many would find that interesting.

Quote:
And then there are a much smaller group of people like you, who (and I include you here because of the game you are creating and because of your own statements) really get into the storyline. It creates more than just the atmosphere, but a deeper affect in how they see a game, not only from a storyline perspective but from a reality or historical outlook. They also enjoy the challenge/rush like the others, but it becomes part of an overall feel/meaning/depth/atmosphere/enjoyment of the game.

Indeed.
For my, it's part of modding -wanting to create a world, and experience, new , or recreate one from the past...Put the player into it....I judge my modding by how deep can I move a player though an experience.

I can't avoid a story, because Sonder 1 and Sonder 2 are mission based mods. Each level , or almost each one you get a new mission and you actually perform it in-game..its' not just empty words. So intermission screens with a mission and it's background is a MUST for me.
Eridu is also story-based, as it has interesting story, and you really advance in the story in the game...it give my mods a direction, coding-wise, art-wise and mapping-wise.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 12:31 am
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We could always have a storyline item, but allow a "no opinion" vote, that way people who don't read the story can use that instead of some arbitrary number they choose. I don't think the storyline can just be brushed off. I did spend a lot of time working the storyline of Orb of Dilaaria to try to make it cohesive and believable (in a fantasy world, at least).

Overall - at first I thought it'd be an average. But how many times have you played a game (any game) that you might have said this: The graphics aren't the best, but the game is fun and I'm addicted. That sounds like: Graphics: 3, Gameplay: 10, but the average would be 6.5. However, you feel that the gameplay more than compensates for the graphics, so an 8 or 9 overall makes more sense. Maybe not the best example... I think I personally place more weight on gameplay. Others may not.

Gameplay is sort of a catch-all category, IMO. My opinion follows: If gameplay sucks, I don't want to replay it. In fact, I probably won't finish it so the re- prefix isn't even an option. If the game has noticeable bugs, that takes away from the gameplay. I won't play something that bombs every 5 minutes.

Originality is an interesting thought. Though, if added, I don't think it'd need to be under every topic. I know it'd be more specific to do it like that, but this is just a quick voting procedure. I don't think people want to be daunted by a 50 point questionnaire each time they want to rate a game. 4-7 general topics seem a good amount. The 'overall' is what matters anyway (no matter whether calculated or given) since that's the person's overall feeling about the entire game.

So I guess I would be up for: Graphics, Sound, Maps, Gameplay, Story, Originality, Overall

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 12:46 am
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Indeed, I like the Orb story, it's very well written.

Modding is altering, creating, modificating...
And wolf3d modding is about modificating maps, art, sounds etc...but also wolf3d story.

Making story is an art as well, and it's not that simple to make it original, believable and interesting. I think it deserves rating.

About gameplay - I agree it includes coding, replay value and such....ALOT of things.
So I'm okay with GAMEPLAY to include "Replay Value". But can't we list in brackets at least some of things that are part of gameplay - so people will understand to include it? Maybe not even on gameplay only...just to give people ideas what to refer in rating a mod

Like (example)
GAMEPLAY (balancing, rush, replay value, challenge....)
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 4:12 am
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"Graphics, Sound, Maps, Game Play, Story, Originality, Overall."

I would disagree with the idea of an "Originality" field. It will surely be factored into the other fields already. For instance , if originally of graphics matters to a voter, they will factor it into the value they choose for that field.

I also don't like the idea of a "Story" field. It is a single aspect of a mods overall "Atmosphere". Indeed, "Atmosphere" may be a better choice, but I would question whether that is going too far for these sorts of reviews (i.e. it's something that would be detailed in a text review, not a numerical one).

I would go with Graphics, Sounds, Maps, Game Play and Overall myself.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 5:13 am
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I like the Atmosphere thing...
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 11:35 am
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Heh, to end all debate:
Have only an overall rating, but a comment field limited to 400 characters or so. Then a person can expand the votes to see the individual votes (however, the voters' names will not be shown at all with the vote/review).

Obviously people see things different ways. I can see originality as both an individual field and a subfield of each main area, but I don't see storyline so strongly as an aspect of atmosphere.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 12:54 pm
   Subject: Re: Top 10 Charts
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That sounds good Adam... 400 char comments.... And I actually went back to page 1 of the thread where I first mentioned the system & thinking we needed a change, and back then I had in mind:

Atmosphere <-> Gameplay <-> Overall
And this was because at the time I was thinking this:

Item gets entered for rating/voting and during the enter phase the person is asked to enter:

Game Name
Author
Downloadlink
VFile Changes? if yes... which Graphics, Sounds Vgagraph
New EXE?
Number of Maps

And then the voting works off of the 3 selections.. Because:

Atmosphere is covered by Story, Use of Graphics, Use of Sounds, Maps...
Gameplay: Use of Maps in creating the hook/challenge/rush/replayability....
Overall: Would you recommend it to others, with your overall rating...

Those 3 added together... divided by 3 gives Average rating based on votes for that user... Main vote at the top includes all voters 3 entries added together and divided by the number of voters to give a more realistic view or rating based on a larger sampling... These votes are a one time thing...

But each of those 3 items overlap so much of the many different voting items that people aren't fixed into say nit-picking and at the same time, it relates to all entries, be it a mapset, modification, or Total Converstion... And in the end we end up with a list that gives much more information to the reader and more accurate view by a larger group of votes..

So what do you think of that?

Greg
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Edit Addition:
This way a Mapset is covered because a mapset alone can create the atmosphere in the use of decorations and the proper use of walls. It creates the gameplay in that a good map will use the different aspects of balance, challenge, etc.. to create the atmosphere and gameplay that gives you the hook and replayability factor... and then the overall is how you see the game overall and the higher your rating the more recomendation factor is given... because a good mapset for the original graphics can be just as enjoyable or more than something that has been edited and modded to the hilts. In the end... it's really the maps that make and break a game...

You can have a fantastic new set of graphics, or a heavily modded EXE, a great set of sounds, and storyline that creates part of the hook, etc... But in the end, if the maps don't cut it, the game won't be recommended.. And what we all really want, is to play the best games of the bunch. We are all affected by the use of walls, static sprites, right balance of enemies, treasure, secrets for those that like to play the game for different reasons be it speed, challenge, complete inialation of enemies, 100% bonuses, etc... It's really all in the maps... A fantastic set of graphics is nice.. New and different sounds are nice... New weapons are nice... New features are nice... But it really all comes back to the maps.. and how all of it is used..

And with the 3 voting options you cover all the different possible ways of modifying the game and as such vswap mods, major mods, Total Conversions, and mapsets alone can all be compared to one another and give the person looking for something to play a great range of choices and recommendations...

[Offtopic Mode - Do not reply to this portion of the post here]
Then later, what I think we really need to work on is a common set of defines so that maps and mapsets can be interchangeable... ie: item 80 is a pistol pickup but if you aren't using that modified exe and want to use the maps with the original (but modified exe) the pistol could be converted to ammo or a machinegun... Wall sets are the same way... so that the mapsets are interchangeable... Now wouldn't that be great?? I really used to like playing many of the older mapsets and just change the vswap.. and each had a different feel... but everything was interchangeable.. and you could make your own games or challenges using different maps from different games and placing them in different orders would also give you something new and exciting.. But that's for a different thread/topic...

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 10:37 pm
   Subject: Re: Top 10 Charts
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I agree.

Atmosphere, Gameplay, Overall.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 11:45 pm
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I jumped into this topic late and must confess I've not read through it all. I like the new info for games. Though I might suggest one more: info link. Then that can link to the game's homepage or Wolfsource wiki page or something for additional details.

Overall is the supertopic of Atmosphere and Gameplay. I see your overall opinion as well, over all. Smile I still think rankings can boil down to and rely on overall. modDB, IGN, Gamespot, and Gamespy all have only a single overall vote.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 12:29 am
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For me - Atmosphere is part of GamePlay and visa versa. Moreso - Actually GamePlay is the Overall. Gameplay - If the mod is fun to play...that's Overall, isn't it? Smile

Still, for mods that have great something but alot of other bad stuff - dividing it into sections can allow you to give positive credit for the modder if something is done well, even if the rest sucks.
Not always we want to play the mod - sometimes we want a great art or sound or coding resource...and "overall-only poll" will hide those jewels (of overall bad mods) from us.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 12:46 am
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I agree and it sounds like you think the topics can boil down to a single rating (at least in your first paragraph). I've been thinking of 'gameplay' basically meaning 'free of bugs', 'no rooms with 10 Hans and only being given a pistol', etc, but yes, truly it can be the same as 'overall'. Fun is fun is fun.

I also agree it would be nice to allow people to pinpoint aspects that are good even if the overall aspect was bad. However, pointing out positives via a comment is also possible. Many of the aforementioned game sites also allow comments with the ratings.

We can debate and subdivide things for a long time. Take "sound" for instance, well, I could consider "music" a topic desiring its own separate rating, etc. Coding-wise, once we can get one number stored, it's a very short jump to store as many subdivisions as we want.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 1:31 am
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Adam Biser wrote:
I've been thinking of 'gameplay' basically meaning 'free of bugs

Well..."bugs" is pretty general word...we can talk coding bugs, mapping bugs (divided into at least 3 categories of 1. "implementing" known wold3d engine mapping bugs, and 2. "10 hans and just 1 pistol" BALANCING bugs and "missing key, door, exit" DESIGN bugs.

Coding bugs can go into Coding, or GamePlay...
Mapping bugs can go into Mapping or Gameplay
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 6:01 am
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So am I right in thinking that you both think that maybe only 2 options ?? Gameplay and Overall??

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 6:32 am
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Can someone give me an example of OverAll quality that is not included in GamePlay (or affecting the gameplay)?
If you can - I vote for OverAll and GamePlay.
But if you can't..........

I'm starting to think of another direction...Beside the OverAll (in addition to it) - instead of rating each "property" 1-10 - we can select one (or 2 or 3?) best properties of the mod from the list of music, story, art, coding, mapping.....only the one (two?) that is selected the most is displayed.
This way bad overall mods with just good maps, or just good art or good story - with still get credit for something done well.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 9:54 am
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@doomjedi: All of those can be gameplay bugs to me. map bugs = I can't finish the game = bad gameplay. Coding bugs = possible game crashing = bad gameplay.

@BrotherTank: I am thinking only a simple one number vote, maybe with comments.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 6:14 pm
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DoomJedi wrote:
This way bad overall mods with just good maps, or just good art or good story - with still get credit for something done well.
Ouch.... That's almost like what I was saying longwinded above about giving everyone a trophy that plays a game so they all "feel" good... rather than reward the winners.. because this politically correct crap is creeping everywhere....

It's almost like you keep talking yourself in circles.. and just when I saw what looked like agreement via discussion, you pulled a hard right and back... I'll put it to you another way... vswap changes are nice... but it's the maps that you use them on that makes the difference.. Another way to look at it is: Great graphics, sounds, and (ok story) atmosphere, but the maps are crap.. the game plays like a piece of "s@#%" but your still going to give it a say 7 out of 10 because the other things are good.. and as such you'd be recommending that someone else download and play a huge pile... ???? Ouch... Take a few deep slow breaths... Really??

Adam Biser wrote:
I am thinking only a simple one number vote, maybe with comments.
I actually liked the 400 character comment idea... so people see the list and for each game a rating, and a comment link that pops up the members names and the comments they made... That way someone can vote whatever and still say "Good story, So so Maps" etc...

And people can sort them by "Best rating"/"Game"/"Vswap"/"Maps" ... in Ascending/Descending Order.... With Mods and TC's being considered the same type as "Game". 1 vote of 0 to 10 would be nice... Overall...


Anyone else got any ideas?? Likes - Dislikes? Remember you can't complain later when it isn't what everyone wants when it's basically 2 members with other input making the choices... I'm just playing devils advocate to some of them (the ideas) because after all these years I've seen and experienced so much of all of this as Admin of this place... lol.. So please lets hear from more of you on the subject... as I'd like to see the community live a long time and as such, we always see new people come along and ask "what's good" and with so much out there... This would be the best way to present it all... I mean what better than a rating that is generated by many people giving opinions on the games they've played...

Greg
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 7:30 pm
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personally, I think we need more Adam. To be honest if I play a mod and I'm only given a single rating then if i didn't like the mod I'd rate low despite the fact that there may have been some really great things in the mod.

Breaking it down gives you the option to give a modder credit for something they have done well rather then the bad things standing out and affecting your one sole rating. If I can give a mod 2 for mapping but an 8 for sprites and walls then this averages to 5. If I didn't like the mod then I would 'one off' rate it lower than that, maybe a 3 or a 4 because the bad things have made a stronger lasting impression than the good things.

It's not going to be hard to see if people aren't rating fairly if we offer multiple things to rate on either. If they give 0/10 for 5 or 6 categories then it's obvious that they either absolutely hated every single aspect of the mod (A bit hard to believe that there wasn't something done better than a 0) or they are purposefully rating the lowest they can to affect the mods popularity.

I vote for the multiple rating sections with comments, I just feel it will be fairer.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 7:56 pm
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Dean wrote:
personally, I think we need more Adam. To be honest if I play a mod and I'm only given a single rating then if i didn't like the mod I'd rate low despite the fact that there may have been some really great things in the mod.

That's why I originally suggested the 3 things... way back on the first page... because the 2 of the 3 or really 3 of the 3 overlap in so many ways.. and as such, you get a good average over them for not only say an individual rating, but over a larger sampling of voters, then it really does zero in on what each of them might be worth..

Dean wrote:
It's not going to be hard to see if people aren't rating fairly if we offer multiple things to rate on either. If they give 0/10 for 5 or 6 categories then it's obvious that they either absolutely hated every single aspect of the mod (A bit hard to believe that there wasn't something done better than a 0) or they are purposefully rating the lowest they can to affect the mods popularity.

Good thinking except that we don't really want to show idividual votes ?? or do we?? I thought it was more like... Y number of people have voted and Overall it has a rating of: Z.. Then click on the comments link and you can see individual comments as posted by the voter... Now I guess Admins and Moderators could be given the ability to see the votes.. but unless it's constantly like 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 from the same person over many mods, then it's really hard to know if they are just being tight or trying to skew results.. I would expect the authors (some not all) to be like 10 10 10 10 10 for their work type of thing.. but again, the more voters in general would make the overall rating more accurate..

This is very helpfull and definitely adds more thoughts to the process.. Thanks.. I really do appreciate all of this and I hope no-one is taking my responses the wrong way.. Anyone else??

Greg
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 12:36 am
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BrotherTank wrote:
Good thinking except that we don't really want to show idividual votes ?? or do we??

It could help prevent score tampering. You'd always see the overall rating, but there could be a link like "show votes" which would list all the individual votes from best rating to worst, comments would display with the rating along with your username (unless you ticked anonymous option). Also I think it would be best to give people only one vote, just give them the option to change their mind, which would replace their old vote and comment.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 5:19 pm
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I agree, each person should only be able to vote once for each mod, not each week like we currently can.

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