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Wolfenstein Plus
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Zach
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2003 10:40 am
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I was thinking... you know how there's an editor friendly Doom engine called Boom (actually I guess there's more than one...)? Well what if we did something like that for Wolf?

It could have the essential functions for some of the newer mods such as floor and ceiling texures, cleaned up source code (all the extra junk that causes Abnormal Program Termination deelie), and other little tune-ups.

So it'll basically be souped up Wolf engine. Wolfenstein... plus some.

This may have been thrown around as a small thought before but I think we should take this seriously and try it.

Thoughts?
Ideas?

EDIT: Just had to make a couple corrections... but what's with the crap where you can't post so soon afterwards?
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2003 1:56 pm
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There is more than 1 (Try Zdoom, Vavoom, and Jdoom! Wink )

Do you mean something like Newwolf? Execpt, with textured ceils. and floors and stuff? That would be a GREAT idea.

Suggestions: Jumping (Dont know how it would help, but...), When you die, you would drop to the ground, models (for everything), directional sprites...

Hell, there could even be a "Wolfenstein Plus Editor", where you could make TCs in it! Exclamation Wink
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2003 2:26 pm
   Subject: Re: Wolfenstein Plus
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This sounds a bit like the WinWolf3D project I've been working on (though not so much lately). In WinWolf3D, everything (wall/ceiling/floor tectures, guard graphics, sounds, music, etc) would be controlled by a script file.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:49 pm
   Subject: Re: Wolfenstein Plus
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I think he was thinking more along the lines of the wolf3d engine with certain features already coded in it so non-coders could create tcs with source changes in it. Wink I've kinda thought about it a little, but of course I'm too busy to do it.
Something more along the lines of BOOM (not many huge, radical changes such as rooms on top of rooms, but simple, small changes, and some cool extras).

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:55 pm
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@Dan: Exactly.

@Sockdude: Yea ZDoom is great. That's so much fun! Also great ideas. Do you think you could do any of that? Any help would be great.

@Anyone: Wanna contribute?
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2003 5:40 pm
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Yeah, I'd LOVE to contribute to it!!!!!

Shocked

however, I'm really only good for kinda useless little additions like
bullet time and Bj talk......... Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
Laughing Laughing Laughing

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2003 2:31 pm
   Subject: Re: Wolfenstein Plus
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Zach Attack wrote:
@Sockdude: Yea ZDoom is great. That's so much fun! Also great ideas. Do you think you could do any of that? Any help would be great.


Try Vavoom! Smile Great stuff!

Anyway, I could code SOME of the features i said. You can take the others to MCS or something, he's awsome at coding, like, the jumping at dropping to the floor. But that rould involve heights Crying or Very sad *sniff* which we cant do yet.

But if we goto ID with this, they'll squak at us, saying "You want Wolf3d plus? Play RTCW!"

Ehh, this will be good, even if we dont get all these suggestions done... People have never made a "Wolf3d Plus"

That W3D+ editor I was talking about... I still think thats a good idea Twisted Evil
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2003 4:10 pm
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I've had this idea for awhile, but I thought it would be possible to do it with original Wolf3d, but the engine is becoming outdated. This is a straightforward list of what must happen...

-Clear up all copyright discepencies with id, GT, Apogee, and Activision just in case we violate a GPL with this

-Ditch the old IMF format, go with OGGs or MP3s

-It should be the same plot, but a bit more straightforward

-Same concept as Raistlins BJ talk, but make it more like DukeTalk (DN3D) After shooting an SS's arm off, I'd love to hear it say, "Hmm... I'll be he's feeling a bit disconnected!" Twisted Evil

-Port to windows, and make it run FAST without compromising GRAPHICS QUALITY. You might wanna use a GL Node Builder like jdoom if thats the direction it'll go in.

-More story based

Umm thats it right now.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2003 9:13 am
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We need Ripper for this one Cheesy Grin

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2003 11:17 am
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I propose a "What if" section for these uh...'irrelevant' muses..
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2003 12:18 pm
   Subject: Re: Wolfenstein Plus
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Zach Attack wrote:
I was thinking... you know how there's an editor friendly Doom engine called Boom (actually I guess there's more than one...)? Well what if we did something like that for Wolf?

It could have the essential functions for some of the newer mods such as floor and ceiling texures, cleaned up source code (all the extra junk that causes Abnormal Program Termination deelie), and other little tune-ups.

So it'll basically be souped up Wolf engine. Wolfenstein... plus some.

This may have been thrown around as a small thought before but I think we should take this seriously and try it.

Thoughts?
Ideas?


Yes, as we talked about in chat (you, TVP and I) back a month or so ago (maybe longer)... I have already started this. Originally it was to be Wolfenstein ME (but then someone took that name because I discussed the idea with them). It's currently about 90% done, and features quite a few of the tutorials out there in the community and many that aren't.

I'll put together a list of what is already included in the code and what is still being worked on.

My whole idea for doing this was two fold.

1. To bring new life to the original game. One could go back and with very little effort, create a brand new look to the original game.

2. To give those that don't have any idea about programming a base engine, with as many features as possible without going too crazy (ie: keeping it realistic) to use just as MCS/Areyep did with the SOD2 designers kit.

I've been holding back on releasing features as there are some specialized things that MCS and I designed that are being used in other projects.

Zach Attack wrote:
EDIT: Just had to make a couple corrections... but what's with the crap where you can't post so soon afterwards?


That is a default setting of the forums. It is set that way to avoid the "double" post so that when one hits the "submit" button, it doesn't post twice. I believe it is a 15 second delay between posts.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 4:12 pm
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@Tristan: How about we have a forum for Tristan's 'irrelevant' posts?

@Brothertank: Sorry if it seemed like I was stealing your idea. I guess I didn't really grasp it when you told me. Anyways.... Yeah. So I guess you're working on it still?
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 7:43 pm
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Zach Attack wrote:
@Tristan: How about we have a forum for Tristan's 'irrelevant' posts?

@Brothertank: Sorry if it seemed like I was stealing your idea. I guess I didn't really grasp it when you told me. Anyways.... Yeah. So I guess you're working on it still?


Yep.. still working on it... slowly but surely.... Haven't given it a name as per the "ME" thing.... it's that 'once bitten, twice shy' thing... but it is comming along. It's about 91% complete now... still a few issues to work out....

ie: Directional sprites and how to better define them... I'm thinking about using an idea something similar to the "pushwall" type define... and there are a few others, but it is comming along.

What I would really love though is some updated code to the raycaster that would allow for actual transparent walls.... And the parralaxing sky issue would also be interesting, but not that necessary. I'm sure everyone will be pleasantly surprised by the final result. MCS saw an early version of it, and liked it... So...

I'll keep you posted on my progress...

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2003 3:36 am
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Just found this thread. So what's the current state of progress? ;D
Sounds really intersting!

We also thought about some kind of basic wolf engine construction kid for ChaosEdit, but as you could write a whole big programm about it, we suspended this idea, although it may be possible that something like this may be included one day (five years or so *lol*) Mr Green
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2003 8:47 am
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Ripper wrote:
Just found this thread. So what's the current state of progress? ;D
Sounds really intersting!

We also thought about some kind of basic wolf engine construction kid for ChaosEdit, but as you could write a whole big programm about it, we suspended this idea, although it may be possible that something like this may be included one day (five years or so *lol*) Mr Green


Currently the status is as follows:

Completed:

3 new guards, - MCS/BT
random kill sounds, BT
random first sighting sounds, BT
random ambient sounds - BT/Ian
individual weapons - can have chaingun without getting machinegun, -BT
weapon change sound - MCS/BT (new weapon change routine)
4 ammo types - one for each - pistol, shotgun, machinegun, chaingun, -BT
Gun Bobbling -Dugtrio17
Crosshair Cursor - BT
Backpacks - Allow you to carry more ammo - BT
Individual Ceiling/Floor textures - Darkone - BT Modified
animated wall textures, -Darkone
64+ wall tiles, -BT
4 locked doors with keys -BT
3 regular style doors -BT
seperate door sides/jams for each door style, -BT
Godmode artifact
Timer on Status Bar - BT
Teleporting - MCS
Outside Atmosphere - Ripper - Modified for Thunder & Lightning - BT
Non-Reversing Walls - Ripper
Enemies Use Bonus - MCS
Full Sprite 64x 64 - Darkone
Frozen Boss - MCS
Heartbeat - BT
Level Ratio - MCS
Bosses React to Sounds - MCS
Seamless Level progression - MCS
Intermission Screens - BT
Armour - BT
Landmines - BT
Fixed elevators - Now work North/South/East/West with dedicated dead elevator and rails.

And a few other little goodies that I haven't told anyone about Smile

Still in Coding:

breaking columns, -MCS
exploding barrels, -MCS
proximity alarm - BT
Directional Sprites - Ripper - Still working on defines within engine
A few Animated Sprites - BT/MCS
Additional 2 Guards if memory allows
And as many sprites as I can include (as memory allows)

---------------------------
Everything will be controllable by the creator using the base engine... ie: I came up with an idea that MCS and I developed that will make most options within the game controllable by the person designing the game (more on this later).

It's getting close to completion. It was close, but then I re-wrote a few of the routines to free up memory and clean the code. Changing over to a you only get/have the weapons you pick up created a small problem. And then converting over to seperate ammo types increased the re-write.

I'd say it's close to completion, unless I add a few other ideas I was working on.

What I would really appreciate Ripper, if you have the time, is a modification to the original raycaster (when drawing walls) to allow for the 255 colour mask to be transparent so one could create "windows" within a wall graphic ??

Anyhow, that's where it stands... or there abouts... Very Happy

Greg
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2003 9:26 am
   Subject: Re: Wolfenstein Plus
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A lot of features there! I wonder how it will look, and will it still have the "Wolfensteinish" feeling. Ah, guys, do you have an idea that I met a Polish programmer a couple of months ago that was working on Direct3D Edition & VESA Wolfenstein, but I never met him again. Sad

Looks really cool BT, but it will need new level design (falling pillars, etc.) so I'm not sure that's what Zach originally though about.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2003 10:06 am
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Martin wrote:
A lot of features there! I wonder how it will look, and will it still have the "Wolfensteinish" feeling. Ah, guys, do you have an idea that I met a Polish programmer a couple of months ago that was working on Direct3D Edition & VESA Wolfenstein, but I never met him again. Sad

Looks really cool BT, but it will need new level design (falling pillars, etc.) so I'm not sure that's what Zach originally though about.


The game completely follows the original... There have been a few changes that make a few small map mods necessary, but for the most part, it is all original.

The additional features are user/mod creator controlled. You don't want ceiling textures, you don't use them.. You don't want teleporting... you don't add them to your map. That is the secret piece of coding that I was refering to....

MCS had a problem (as many programmers do) where the map maker/graphic designer wants to try different things when making the map. I suggested a different solution to the problem, and MCS and I developed a situation where anything we want can be enabled/disabled by the MAP.

To achieve this, we use the map to define things within the game so that we don't have to change the code each time someone wanted something new/different. You want texture "A" on the ceiling and texture "F" on the floor... You define it on the map. You want song "5" to play on this map and song "2" to play on the next... You define it on the map.... There are more, but I don't want to give everything away at this time.

Suffice to say, the code is comming along, and I hope to have it out before the new year..... (fingers crossed on that one).

But in general, this will allow the Mod author to create many different scenarios using just one engine. By changing the graphics/walls/textures/doors/sprites and sounds, the author will have full control over their Mod. You want it to be old school... ok... use the original definitions for the game. You want the extras, they are there for your choosing....

Greg
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2003 2:43 pm
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BrotherTank wrote:
What I would really appreciate Ripper, if you have the time, is a modification to the original raycaster (when drawing walls) to allow for the 255 colour mask to be transparent so one could create "windows" within a wall graphic ??

But that's what the directional 3d sprites were meant for. OK, I guess it should be overworked a bit, as I think there were still a few problems, and of course, if the window is too small, it wouldn't fit the sprite format, but it was the easiest solution I found that time.
Of course, it would be possible to change the raycaster to do something like this, but is it really needed?

But all together it looks really nice!
We'll surely include functions to use your map settings format in CE, if it's appreciated Wink
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2003 5:35 pm
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Sounds like you read my mind Greg (you bastard!) - lol. I'm just kidding... it's cool to know that other people have thought of making a new version V1.5 of wolf3d that is more "editor friendly" and has built-in features that you can customize (for addon purposes); while still being able to let users create something true to the original if they want. Seems like you considered alot of things that I've thought about too (bosses react at all angles, getting the chaingun without the machine gun, having things like ceiling colours editable from somewhere easily accessible so you don't have to redistribute the exe; etc.). What kind of "changes that make a few map mods necessary" do you mean? I'm sure they won't affect the original game much, or else you would have made something that could toggle them off or on. Smile

The idea of having some type of MAP file (or INI, *.C type, or inside the Config.wl6 file) to customize everything that you could change externally has definately crossed my mind for something like this too. Especially if someone is just shipping around a level pack and wants to change simple things like the music order or ElevatorBackTo pointers or something. I was thinking, also, maybe it would be easier for the player to just be able to adjust everything from the menu (if it takes up too much memory, you can always just add a new exe using the wolf3d fonts/layouts; specifically for editing everything). Than, you can have different menus for changing specific things, like this:

Control Menu:

- Activate Debugging Codes (with applicable password you can write)
- Edit your game (only viewable once you press three keys that the creator defines; with applicable password).

Inside the "Edit Your Game" submenu:

- Global Preferances
- Episode Options
- Level Definitions
- Sprite Constants
- Weapon Stuff
- Enemy Characteristics
- Memory Management

Constants (no need to specify):

- all added objecttypes can be included (4 keys, teleport, breakable objects, etc.)
- Bosses react from all angles
- Bosses react to sounds (just place deaf guard floorcode on the original levels)
- 600 Sprite Max?
- Full Screen Capability (if conventional memory is greater than 288k?)
- Spear of Destiny defs/pictures included for editing?
- Extra Debug Options (automap? noclip? play sounds/music? show memory in bytes? show closest sprite name/type? customizable slow motion factor? show highest possible score for each level? show location in tile[x][y] format?)
- Save and Highscore option disabled in Debugmode
- LevelRatios saves your score for each level (and possibly other things like keys received, health/ammo/lives at the end of the level, time down to the nearest 70th of a second if you've gotten under 6 minutes, etc.), all of which you can pull up and look at in debugmode when you get to the last level
- Add Time Contests to the Highscores page (possibly with it saving your best time ever for each level in a separate data buffer - where your new level time will appear in yellow [on the elevator screen] if you get within 5 seconds of it; orange if you match it, or red if you beat it); and maybe a highscores page for each indivudual episode, with your overall score and time added on the main highscores page (ala 'Hall of Fame' website style - lol)
- Guns can only be gotten individually (no getting the machine gun when you received the chaingun... not just BT's idea; I've noticed this strangeness years.... OKKKK? Ok. lol)
- If there is no treasure/secret/kill, you will get 100%
- Pacmans do not count towards kill ratio (unless specified by the user)
- Add 5 seconds to their overall time everytime they save (this will generally only affect people who race)
- Spear Level 21 Ghosts do not give you any points (to avoid infinate score)
- If you beat the 100% score for a level, a different BJ Image will appear with new music on the elevator screen
- Bosses now all have a general routine which goes to declarations that are customized for each boss, same with the regular enemies (to save room and to make it easier to add more of them)
- Saves your game into a new file (that can be resumed) if the "Out of Memory" or any other error message pops up on the screen when you're not in debugmode
- Looks for extra extensions to Config.wl6 (like Config.bj4) so that it will add those games to a sub-menu under "New Game" (or right when the program starts); where you can pick which game you want to play... which will than become the default game.
- Ability to run the external PKZIP.EXE program; that will compress all required files for your addon into a zip file that can be sent to the internet and unzipped into people's Wolf3d V1.5 [uhh, M.E.] directory (where it will than be converted to proper form by the wolf3d.exe program).

"Global Preferances" Menu choices:

- The name of your game (with optional 16x32 picture for it)
- Names of Episodes/Skill levels
- Specify Menu/ChangeView Colours/Textures
- Enable Ceiling/Floor Textures
- Display Demos
- Walk/Running Speed
- Blocks you can push the secret passage (1-64)
- Enable Heartbeat sound, and what your health must be less than
- Toggle "6 Episode menu" on/off (can use 12-24 episodes, where next 6 appear on a new page when you scroll down?)
- Choose if you want "shadowed" walls for E/W (or use only 1 wall picture for each maptile to save room)
- Show Main Menu (or go right into the game and/or last saved game always, like with tedlevel)
- Is the player allowed to use the crosshair option?
- Maximum amount of saves per level (minimum 1, maximum 256), or infinity

Episode Definition:

- How many levels the episode will have
- Ability to unlock the episode only after another one is beaten
- How much Ammo/Health/Weapons/Lives you start each episode with
- Percentage different than normal the strength of enemies/damage/points from treasure/enemies can be from other episodes
- Define how high the "par time floors" will go for this episode
- Customize Elevator Back to Maps (based on all levels that are above par time declaration)

Level Definitions:

- Define the level Par Time (unless it was declared as a secret level)
- Choose the Music for the level
- Ceiling Colour (or texture; displayed on top right corner)
- Floor Colour/Texture (shown on top/right corner; if you toggled that option on in the main choices)
- Specify new ammo/weapons to start the level with (if you toggle this on)
- Specify how much percentage of kill/secret/treasure you must have on the level before you can press the elevator (if you toggle this on)
- Specify a new offset for wall tiles (can have 32 constants and 32 new ones per level [default]; the 32 new ones automatically replace the old ones on the map for easy 64+ walls - if you toggle this option on for the level)
- Choose if the level will start with a Readme file, and which one (there's no maximum, just keep adding them to the Vgagraph file - heheh)

Sprite Constants:

- Show Picture of Sprite (top right corner)
- Define it's Picture in the VSWAP
- Pick it's characteristics from all bo_xxx choices (including the extras implimented)
- Advanced Object-type Actions:
- A1: Play which Sound (or none)
- A2: Flash on/off?
- A3: Customize Specific Numeric Values (score points, amount of ammo received/damage, etc.)

Weapon Stuff:

- Show weapon animation (top right corner)
- Specify Sound for firing
- Rate of fire
- Amount of shots per command (1,2,3 or infinity)
- Which ammotype should it use?
- AD1: The limit for this type of ammo (default 99)
- Customizable strength for each weapon (using default 32 as 1?)
- Radius range you can hit (in degrees)
- Distance this weapon can reach (using default 64 as 1?)
- Declare Sprites for it that are used from VSWAP
- How many frames should take place before it's shooting?
- How many frames after? (default is 1)
- Amount of frames the actual shooting goes through (1-9 - would be funny if someone used 9 - haha)
- Ability to control it's left/right position and size? Might be cool for high defined weapon images like Corridor 7...
- Add new weapons (maximum of 10 weapons?)

Enemy Characteristics:

- Show Different Angle (their picture will animate in the top-right corner)
- Customize strength (hit points)
- Pick how many points they give you when they die
- Can specify which Sound(s) to play/randomize for when he sees you, shoots you, and dies
- Define the Picture in the VSWAP for each frame (WL_DEF.H)
- Speed (during ambush and unalarmed)
- Hide/Chase ratio
- If they shoot directly, shoot a sprite (such as rockets), or both
- Ability to drop static object (prompt for all relevant bo_xxx choices)
- Do they count towards Kill Ratio?
- How many directions can you see the enemy with new frames? (1,2,4 or 8...)
- How many frames are allcolated for their shooting/dying sequences (0 to 16?); and do they have have a standard "stationary" picture (checkmark box)?
- Add new enemy types (with a maximum of course)

Memory Management:

- Show all your forms of memory in bytes
- Change the MaxSprite/Enemies ratio (if there is a possible way to rearrange this to work after the game is compiled. default would be 600 objects/150 actors... each elevation of 15 objects will decrease the actors by 2 - if you have the "constant" box checked off).
- Define most amount of weapons/enemies/doors/walls etc. (to help manage room)

I don't know, that's just a few of the ideas that I'D like to be able to play around with if I was making an addon (or making the actual editing program). Maybe if your version isn't as close to this as I'd like it to be; I'll work on a different version that's easier and funner to use - just for heck of it (and since I always had a great vision of doing something like this anyways). Well, I'm gonng head off to work now, but if you guys need any beta testers (or people to help out with some of the actual programming - a team effort 'might' be kinda cool), let me know... and I'll be happy to contribute! Smile


Last edited by Chris on Mon Nov 10, 2003 6:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2003 6:20 pm
   Subject: Re: Wolfenstein, and than some...
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Chris wrote:
The idea of having some type of MAP file (or INI, *.C type, or inside the Config.wl6 file) to customize everything that you could change externally has definately crossed my mind for something like this too. Especially if someone is just shipping around a level pack and wants to change simple things like the music order or ElevatorBackTo pointers or something.

Here's the scripting language (parts at least) of what I had planned for WinWolf3D. I post this because it seems to be along the same idea as Chris's INI/*.C file idea:

::: CODE :::

gamename "Wolfenstein 3-D"

//*****************************************************
// Setup the episodes.
//*****************************************************
episode "Escape from Wolfenstein"
   nummaps 10
   // Map 1's secret goes to 10
   mapsecret 1 10
   mapceiling 10 @191
   // Map 10's exit goes to map 2.
   mapexit 10 2
endepisode
...
//*****************************************************
// Setup the pictures.
//*****************************************************
titlepics
   // These could also point to BMPs.
   TITLE      87
   PG13      88
   // @ denotes a palette color... for now.
   PG13Background   @130
   CREDITS      89
endtitlepics

//*****************************************************
// Setup the floors.
//*****************************************************
floor 106 ambush
floor 107 secret
floor 108

//*****************************************************
// Setup the walls
//*****************************************************
// wall number, N,S,E,W
wall 1 0 0 1 1
wall 2 2 2 3 3
wall 3 4 4 5 5
...
wall 21 40 40 41 41
// -1 = not a valid side for switch
wallswitch 21 -1 -1 43 43 endlevel

//*****************************************************
// Doors
//*****************************************************
door 90 100 100 99 99 ew
door 91 98 98 101 101 ns
// Locked doors
door 92 100 100 105 105 ew 1
door 93 104 104 101 101 ns 1

//*****************************************************
// Objects
//*****************************************************
object 23 108 "Pool of Water" lowhealth
object 24 109 "Barrel" solid

//*****************************************************
// Guards

//*****************************************************
guard "Nazi"
   // Speeds
   walkspeed 10
   runspeed 6
   attackspeed 4
   hurtspeed 6
   deathspeed 3
   // Level 1 2 3 4
   health 25 25 25 25
   // Drop Ammo
   dropobject 49
   // I might abridge this so that if the last three values
   //     aren't there, the first is incremented for each one missing.
   stand1codes 108 109 110 111
   walk1codes 112 113 114 115
   stand3codes 144 145 146 147
   walk3codes 148 149 150 151
   stand4codes 180 181 182 183
   walk4codes 184 185 186 187
   standpics 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163
   walk1pics 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171
   walk2pics 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179
   walk3pics 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187
   walk4pics 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195
   attackpics 202 203 204 203 202
   hurtpics 200
   deathpics 196 197 198 199
   deadpics 201
//   alertsounds
//   hurtsounds
//   deathsounds
//   attackfarsounds
//   attacknearsounds
//   roamsounds
endguard


Maybe this could be useful for the Wolf v1.5 project... or at least to get ideas if there aren't any in the works already...

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 3:39 pm
   Subject: Re: Wolfenstein Plus
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This is great BrotherTank. It will definitely aid the wolf community. Now modders that have little experience can make higher quality mods which should raise the bar for everyone.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 7:41 pm
   Subject: Re: Wolfenstein Plus
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I grabbed the list of things that you would like Chris...

It's not quite what I had in mind, but I'll see what I can do with some of it. By the looks of it though, it was well thought out and quite an extensive list. It's not something I can do all in this version of it, but it is something to work towards.. Smile

Basically, I was going to release 2 exe's, along with the supporting Vswap and vgagraph files. From there it would be up to the individual to create new maps based on the features within the game. Both would be the same, except for the fact that one would be "6 Episodes" and the other would be 60 Seamless levels. One could easily hex code the Episode names. As for the rest of the features, everything is controlled by the maps (I'll explain that once I have everything in place and finalized as I'm still converting things over to map control - some things work, others don't) and that will take a little to get everything nice and user friendly.

But, I am very much interested in your list, and I'll see what I can do with some of it.

Greg
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:04 pm
   Subject: Re: Wolfenstein Plus
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Looks good Adam. I like the things you were considering in your script file. One thing I thought was pretty interesting was how you have the ability to change the picture for all 4 directions for the walls (whereas in the original Wolf3d it was all based off i*2 and i*2-1; which isn't that hard to change and work around though). Nice to see you considered all that enemy stuff for customizing too. Smile

I'm happily surprised that you liked the list Greg. I see your idea, just giving the player a much better base to work with than the original wolf3d (alot of cool options in there; I may have never considered stuff like Animated Walls and Directional Sprites if it wasn't for your list); and having a few major things editable from an external file. I'm sure what you already have planned will certainly be enough (or more than enough) for most people to work with. Like Ringman said, it will definately help people with little or no coding knowledge to make better quality addons. I didn't really have time to consider everything in my last message; but some more little things I'd probably add would be:

- Ability to toggle on/off the enemies ability to 'hit' you from close range (with applicable extra frames)
- 100 Built-in Music Headers (adding more names using a "far" tag [I used 93 songs in one of my projects; lol]. Increasing the number of sounds available too?)
- Extra menu for customizing all the Vgagraph START/NUM stuff (made easier for the player to comprehend; with perhaps some kind of auto-detection too)

Well, thanks again for considering ANYTHING that I threw together on that other message. I'm looking forward to seeing this new version of yours... whatever gets included. I really gotta check out Adam's WinWolf3d to see what I'm missing out on there too (although I've always been partial to the original Dos-style goodness). Very Happy
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2003 10:07 am
   Subject: Re: Wolfenstein Plus
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I don't like the stuff Chris showed. Maybe it would give much more power for the addon makers, but imagine how more shitty add-ons we would have then. It just grabs all of the fun out of making an add-on I think! The code messing, problem solving, painting, compiler setting and so on - wasn't it fun? For me it was, I don't know how about ya...

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2003 1:41 pm
   Subject: Re: Wolfenstein Plus
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Martin wrote:
I don't like the stuff Chris showed. Maybe it would give much more power for the addon makers, but imagine how more shitty add-ons we would have then. It just grabs all of the fun out of making an add-on I think! The code messing, problem solving, painting, compiler setting and so on - wasn't it fun? For me it was, I don't know how about ya...


It's not fun for everyone... not everyone is good at coding... but many people still need extra features in their add-ons. I think that this is actually a good idea, because people might not have to spend so much time worrying about "new features"... they'd have more time to work on things like level design, graphics, etc.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2003 2:49 pm
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Hey, this all sounds pretty cool!!!!

I'll be looking out for both BT's one (title?) and winwolf!!!!

is there a release date?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2003 12:09 am
   Subject: Is Freedom and Simplicity really a bad thing?
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Lol... that was a surprising comment Martin. I didn't even realize that you enjoyed playing around with the source code at all! I thought you were getting Dugtrio17 to handle all that in your addon "Kreml 3d", but obviously I was misinformed or something. You should post some of your experiments in Code Crackers, I would really like to see what you can do, and what parts of the code you like to play around with most. Smile

I do kind of understand what you mean though. Man, I swear, if there was no map editors... I would have kept playing around with the raw savedgame data/gamemaps file until I figured out how everything worked; enough to make my own maps from scratch. That would have been so fun! Just because there are editors doesn't mean we can't still do cool things like that though. It's taken me years to accept that some tasks are more intelligent with editors than hacking, but now that I do - it makes it alot easier for me to figure out when I want to look at files for myself (for the sheer pleasure of knowing how they work), and when to use editors (when I want an easier and faster way to edit something).

So, from the way I see it, what a program like this does is gives people the freedom to do more things easier and faster from an organized and professional perspective. It's up to the creator to decide what they want to change; and how they want their addon to work. Sure, there's alot of people who don't put that much time and effort into their maps/graphics, and it's fair to say that the same types of people won't pick their advanced choices very intelligently either - but some people have a good idea of what they want to do, and something like this can help them accomplish what they never thought they could before. Not everyone wants to spend half their free time trying to get the code to compile and figure out how everything in it works (with the usual shackles of memory limits and trying to fix errorus code). Even people like AReyeP and B.J. Rowan would benefit from something like this, I'm quite sure.

Like with the Mapeditors, it's not like the privilage to hack into everything has been taken away; it just been simplified for whoever wants a faster route to change and add all their essentials. This should actually make the people who want to edit the source code feel even more privilaged when they dig into the depths of that mysterious undergroud... and prouder when they accomplish something in the way the guys at ID themselves did it. It also gives people the oppurtunity to decide easier if they want to make an addon or learn more about the code (before they never had the choice, they needed to do both if they wanted to do make advanced changes - really). I hope this sort of makes sense now; but if it doesn't, feel free to speak your peace some more Martin - because I'm interested in what you have to say (since it seems like we've grown up with similar logic; heh).

Mmmmm... I've been listening to WSJ's version of E3L2.mid in the background the whole time while writing this. Really good music to think with and type along to! Mr Green
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2003 7:05 pm
   Subject: Re: Wolfenstein Plus
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What we need is a scripting language that enables the average wolfer to create cool mods. People who want greater control over the engine can always abandon the scripting language and dive straight into the source code.

Here is a fake script to control the AI for a guard:

01 // guard stands still until he hears or sees something or gets hit
02 state stand
03 {
04 // start standing
05 if count 0
06 {
07 // do not move when standing
08 move 0m/s
09
10 // do standing animation
11 anim stand
12 }
13
14 // process any damage dealt
15 if damage
16 {
17 // take damage dealt
18 take damage
19
20 // could die straight away
21 if health <= 0hp
22 {
23 state die
24 break
25 }
26
27 // go into pain state
28 state pain
29 break
30 }
31 }
32
33 // something hit guard which hurt him
34 state pain
35 {
36 // guard can be struck while in pain
37 if damage
38 {
39 // absorb damage dealt
40 take damage
41
42 // damage could kill him
43 if health <= 0hp
44 {
45 state die
46 break
47 }
48 }
49
50 if count 0 // pain started
51 {
52 // do not move when in pain
53 move 0m/s
54
55 // play a random pain animation
56 if chance 50%
57 anim pain1
58 else
59 anim pain2
60 }
61 else if count 5 // pain ended
62 {
63 // now get pissed about pain
64 state attack
65 }
66 }


The engine needs to know how to read that script and make the guard do what it says.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 7:30 am
   Subject: Re: Wolfenstein Plus
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I find your original structure for the AI of a guard rather odd; to say the least. Having a guard move 0m/s when standing is kind of irrelavant, because you can always just refrain from implimenting the code to make him move until he's alarmed (otherwise he'd obviously do nothing until he detects a sound, gets hit, or sees you). Your code doesn't give the player that much control at all, really, and is just directed to places like "move" and "animate" that can't be customized in the example anyways. Even if someone tries to edit your code by shifting it around, it wouldn't make much sense, as people don't want the guard to do things in a different order; like dying when sees you and than standing when you kill him.

Also, AI (to my knowledge) has nothing to do with a guards pain/damage sequence or when he's defined to become active; it has to do with his choice of movements when he is alarmed - based on where the player, tiles, doors, other guards, etc. are (which is something that wasn't even considered in your example). As far as I see it, all your thought was just put into making a code that shows how a guard generally acts; and wasn't really made to make it easier for the player to customize their specifics or let them do interesting new things. Neutral

Well, I respect your idea to have it make the program load the guard's actions externally; but I think the idea was to do it in a manner that is easy to understand, easy to customize, and only shows essential options that could be used for the creator's benefit; such as their strength (0 if you want them to die when touched), speed during ambush and unalarmed, what they drop, amount of frames for their directions (default 8 for guards and 1 for bosses), their weapons (direct shots, shooting objects, close range attacks), if they can respawn (or morph different characters when they die), when they will try to hide and when they will try to chase (like hiding when you have over 85% health or the big gun and you're less than 20 feet away?), their rate of fire and when to shoot (0 for a friendly enemy), how many sounds they can use (and which ones), if they can open normal and/or locked doors; stuff like that.

Not sure if this message made perfect sense, but I feel the whole "make it easy for the player to understand" stuff needed to be said (which felt lacking in your example). I personally thought it was cool to check out your code, but I think universally - people don't want to have to deal with all the brackets and "break" stuff of a full script file; they want something more user-friendly like a menu with choices that have Yes/No answers, Mulitple Choice tags (based on their options), and Numbers - where they can hear the sounds they pick, see the pictures they pick, and can read info about each option in a help file (even if most of the choices are already straight forward). Just my opinion...
Chris
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 11:16 am
   Subject: I have emotions, this is crazy!
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Ok, I'm sorry - but I don't think I was giving judge as much credit as I should have in my last message.

I did try to focus on what you were trying to do, and not just the actual code itself (since it was just sort of a 'test' example); and you did have a nice idea to contribute. Man, I feel really bad about being so much of a prick (atleast, it feels like I was; as I'm re-reading this last message of mine). I just read your Health/Ammo ratios message a minute ago, and your idea there (which was great, using the dogs and SS traps!) and I wish I would have thought a little more before shutting down your work here like this. Sometimes I should really keep my silly opinions to myself, gragrgr3&*#hus... Rolling Eyes


Last edited by Chris on Mon Nov 17, 2003 11:26 am; edited 1 time in total
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